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Are YOU a Micro Manager? Stretch Goals Podcast Episode 40 Management Tips Business Training Coaching - YouTube
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Robert: In this episode of the Stretch Goals
podcast, Scott and I are going to be asking
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you the question are you a micromanager?
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This is the Stretch Goals podcast, where each
week, weâll share insights and lessons learned
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based on our experiences as entrepreneurs.
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Weâll challenge you to create ambitious
goals as you start and grow your business.
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Iâm your host, Robert Dickerson.
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Scott: And Iâm Scott Davis.
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Robert: So, Scott, I like this topic this
week: are you a micromanager?
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Scott: I am not.
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Robert: Because everyone likes micromanagers,
donât they?
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Scott: Yeah, have you ever had a conversation
where itâs like, âOh, man, dude, heâs
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a micromanager.
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Oh, I love working for him.â
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Yeah, that never happens.
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Robert: Everyone hates it.
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Weâre going to talk about some ways that
you can tell if youâre a micromanager.
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Then, also, maybe a couple things that you
can do to make sure that youâre not falling
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into the trap of micromanagement.
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Scott: Sure.
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Iâll say this.
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Itâs easy to become a micromanager without
knowing it, I think, because especially in
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the corporate space, where youâve got so
many deliverables and different things that
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youâre being held accountable for, itâs
easy for somebody to forget about what matters,
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which is managing the relationships with your
employees, right?
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Then, all of a sudden, you get into actionable
insights and measurable events, and then all
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of a sudden, youâre a micromanager and didnât
even know it.
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Robert: As a leader, youâre in charge of
making sure that everyone gets their work
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done.
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Thatâs the metric that theyâre holding
you accountable against, so you want to have
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control over that.
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A lot of times, Iâll see when people come
up through the ranks, when theyâre not properly
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trained in management, they still want to
get their hands dirty.
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Thatâs what they know, is kind of the day-to-day
operations, so they want to dive in.
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They want to get involved.
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A lot of times, my idea of a manager is just
getting out of the way and providing a platform
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for your employees to be successful.
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That is, in my mind, success for a manager.
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Itâs getting out of the way and making sure
that your employees have the resources to
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get things done.
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If you can do that, I think you can be a successful
manager.
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Scott: Do you think that management styles
for startups in the corporate environment
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could be different and could lend themselves
into micromanaging status differently?
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Robert: I think so, but I think thereâs
probably more similarities.
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Being a leader, when weâve talked about
it in previous episodes, itâs about really
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making people accountable and communicating
and trust.
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Those are three areas weâre going to talk
about a little bit later about how you can
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improve and not be a micromanager.
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If you hire the right people and you communicate
what you want to do and you hold them accountable
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and you trust them, you can be successful.
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Then, if you remove blockers out of their
way, theyâll be successful, as well.
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The idea is that, as a team, you want to get
to the endpoint.
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You want to get to the end of the product.
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Itâs a team effort.
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Think about these three things.
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Are you a micromanager?
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Do you bug your employees all day?
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I know weâve all had a manager like that,
where theyâre sending us emails.
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Theyâre stopping by our door and asking
us, âHey, howâs it going?â
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I think of office space.
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If youâre doing that all day, thatâs probably
a good sign that you might be a micromanager.
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Scott: Yeah, I hated that, constantly wanting
to know what the status is on stuff.
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It comes down to trust, which we talked about
in episode 38.
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If you trust your employees to get their job
done and you trust their skill sets, you donât
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need to bother them.
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The flip side to that is if that employee
is letting you down and not meeting the deliverables,
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then you have some trust issues, which is
valid.
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If you are an employee and you feel like youâre
being micromanaged and you look around and
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your other employees donât feel micromanaged,
it might be a sign that you arenât doing
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the work that youâre expected to.
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Robert: Yeah, thatâs a good point.
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Another area is if youâre a manager and
youâre holding multiple meetings every day
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to get status updates, that might be a good
sign that youâre micromanaging.
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Youâre not communicating properly or youâre
not providing channels for your employees
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to communicate.
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I mean, if youâre having meetings all day
with people, how is anyone being productive
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and getting work done?
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Scott: Yeah.
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The other thing is donât have meetings for
meetingsâ sake, number one, but number two,
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you should be able to know whatâs going
on without having all hands in meetings.
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You should know.
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If youâve got a good relationship with your
employees and you trust them, which we just
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talked about, then theyâll tell you where
they are on things and youâll know.
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You wonât have to have unproductive, recurring
meetings.
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Robert: I think a lot of times, people have
meetings because maybe they donât understand
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the process.
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If youâre doing development work or something,
you donât understand how things are supposed
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to run, so you feel like you need to be really
connected with the developers to make sure
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that theyâre doing their work.
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I mean, this applies to other areas, as well.
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Sales, marketing.
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Itâs very similar in all of them.
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But you need to trust the employees that you
hired to do the right work.
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I mean, you need to have a basic understanding
of whatever kind of field youâre managing
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those people.
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As an entrepreneur, a lot of times Iâm forced
into managing people in areas that Iâm not
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an expert in, whether itâs sales or marketing.
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Those are areas that Iâm still learning
on.
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I need to hire the right people.
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Oh, design is another one, right?
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So I need to hire the right people and I need
to trust them, but I also need to have kind
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of a basic understanding, so I can understand
how thatâs a trade-off there, that you maybe
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need to get more involved.
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Having daily meetings, daily stand-ups, is
not the right solution.
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Another thing Iâve found is to sit down
with maybe a senior-level person and walk
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through what they think the process should
be and get their feedback, especially when
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youâre setting deadlines and youâre setting
things like that.
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Get that personâs feedback.
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Is this reasonable?
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Thatâs something I ask a lot of people is,
âHereâs me expectation.
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Is that reasonable?â
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Use their expertise for them to tell you yes/no,
thatâs reasonable or thatâs not reasonable.
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Scott: Sure, those are great points.
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That helps you out in the planning process,
too.
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The one pet peeve that I really hate about
a micromanager is when they hover over your
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shoulder.
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Letâs say thereâs a critical outage or
they need you to develop something really
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quick.
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Donât ask me or tell me to do something
and then stand there right behind me and watch
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me do it, because thatâs not going to make
it go any faster.
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I donât need your extra 10 fingers to write
this code.
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I definitely donât need you standing there
looking at me and burning a hole in the back
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of my head like Superman.
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I hate that.
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If youâre hovering over peopleâs shoulders,
itâs not effective, unless youâre firing
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them and seeing them out the building.
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I eel like Jeff Foxworthy.
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You might be a redneck.
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You might be a micromanager if you hover over
peopleâs shoulders.
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Robert: Another one is you might be a micromanager
if you donât trust your employees to work
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from home.
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Scott: There you go.
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There you go.
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So youâre saying Melissa Mayer from Yahoo
is a micromanager?
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Robert: Yes.
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Scott: NO, thatâs a good point, right?
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The ultimate goal of a manager or any leader
is to empower your people to do their job,
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whatever it is that theyâre there for.
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It could be someone on the front lines of
a military combat.
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It could be a McDonaldâs hamburger cooker.
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It could be a software developer.
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It doesnât matter, but whoeverâs managing
whatever person, the goal is to do some set
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out objective.
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If youâre motivating them properly and youâre
a good leader, you donât need to see them
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to make it happen.
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You can work from home, like you just said.
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Robert: I mean, not all jobs you can work
from home.
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If youâre a retail employee or you need
to work in a store or something, those are
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things that you have to be there.
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Thereâs certain jobs.
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I mean, I was a lifeguard.
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I had to be at the pool.
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I couldnât lifeguard from home via video
camera or something.
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Yeah, thereâs certain jobs that you need
to be there, but other jobs in the corporate
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world, and thereâs a lot of them, is that
you can work from anywhere at any time.
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A lot of times, the people that I hire, I
really donât care when they work, how they
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work.
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Itâs just I want the work done.
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A lot of times, Iâll make sure thereâs
overlap in the times that we are working.
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I mean, thatâs always productive, right,
if you have questions?
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Iâve worked with people and Australia and
itâs totally opposite, so itâs hard to
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do collaborative type things, but if people
are working on their own and youâve given
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them clear communication and direction, they
can complete that work separately.
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You donât have to be right there beside
them.
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You know, itâs great if youâre working
with people in other countries and stuff,
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too, to wake up in the morning and see that
work has been accomplished overnight while
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you slept.
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Scott: If youâre a control freak, you might
be a redneck.
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I mean, if youâre a control freak, you might
be a micromanager.
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You might be a redneck, too.
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Robert: See, I do like control.
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Scott: Yeah, but if youâre a control freak,
if you absolutely have to have control over
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every aspect, it tends to lead into micromanaging,
because you then feel like you can do everything.
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If you feel like you can do everything, why
do you have these people, because you need
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to trust them to do their job?
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If you canât let them do it, then they should
be your employees.
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Robert: Thatâs something, as new managers,
as new leaders, if youâre just starting
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out, thatâs something Iâve seen a lot
of, that itâs hard for people to let go
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of that control.
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Theyâve done something a certain way, maybe
as a technician in the role, and they move
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up into a management role.
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Theyâre used to doing stuff their own way
and a certain way, so they try to apply that
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technique to everyone.
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You have to do this this exact same way.
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If youâre not doing it, Iâm going to go
back and fix it so you are.
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I think you need to be very careful about
doing that, because people have different
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styles of work.
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As long as theyâre accomplishing the work
that needs to be done, then why does it matter
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if we all do it the same way, right?
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Scott: Thatâs a good point.
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On the flip side, if youâre an employee,
just because you donât like your managerâs
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management style doesnât mean that he or
she is a micromanager.
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It just means that youâve got to figure
out how to work within their mechanisms of
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management.
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Donât confuse being unhappy with your managerâs
style with micromanagement.
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Robert: If we go into how do you stop these
things, how do you be a better manager, I
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think one way is communication.
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Itâs a two-way street, right, from both
the employee needs to communicate how they
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work, how they like to receive feedback, how
they like to be communicated with.
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If the manager understands that and they understand
how to engage with them and communicate with
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them, then you can create a better relationship
there.
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It needs to be that open communication and
not just why does this guy keep telling me
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what to do?
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Theyâre micromanaging me.
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If you can create that communication dialogue
and set an expectation there, I think thatâll
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really help.
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Scott: Yeah.
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I think in life in general, you need to be
constantly looking at yourself and asking
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how youâre affecting other people every
day, from the way that you interact with your
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wife or your kids or your employees or whatever.
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You can always make improvements, right?
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If you donât recognize that you can make
improvements, youâve got something wrong
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with you.
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My point is if you are noticing that the moral
of your team is down or maybe people are responding
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differently, take a step back and ask yourself
what you could do better.
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Maybe youâll be able to see that youâre
developing tendencies that are micromanager-esque,
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but thatâs a good way.
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Constantly self-assess.
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Once a week, once a month, something.
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Just on a regular basis, do that.
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Robert: I think the self-assessment is really
good.
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Also, to get feedback from people of how youâre
doing, people that you trust to give you feedback
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thatâll be truthful with you.
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You have to be receptive of that feedback
and not take it personally, because youâre
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trying to improve.
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Another thing I wanted to say, too, is Iâm
always of the mindset that if your employees
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fail, thatâs a failure on your part as a
leader, as a manager.
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Scott: Yes.
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Robert: You really have to think about it
like that.
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You did not give them the right tools to get
the work done if youâre failing, if your
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employees are failing.
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Scott: Unless you have bad apples.
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I mean, thereâs that.
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Yeah, I agree, for the most part, on that.
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I think the other thing is what can we do
if weâre an employee and our boss is definitely
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a micromanager?
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What can we do to help coach them to getting
out of that micromanager box?
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Robert: I think itâs hard, because people
get set in their ways, especially if you have
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an experienced manager thatâs been doing
it for a long time, if theyâve been micromanaging
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for a long time.
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I think it can be really difficult to change
their ways, but what you can do is open that
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communication channel, that dialogue, and
really continuously have a dialogue of how
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can we best work together?
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How can we be most productive?
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Try to set those boundaries, set those expectations,
and keep communicating that over and over
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again.
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Donât wait for review once a year.
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As youâre working, start communicating those
needs, and then youâll develop that relationship
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over time.
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Scott: Sure.
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Yeah, itâs a fine line.
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You canât bust into his or her office and
be like, âHey, quit micromanaging me, jerk.â
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Youâre going to have to feel them out and
say, âSo, what can I do better?
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Youâve been really on me lately.
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I feel like Iâm getting my work done.
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What can I do better?â
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Itâs all about how you phrase that question
or that conversation, but donât be afraid
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to do it.
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The worst thing that can happen is nothing.
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Nothing happens.
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Youâre not going to get fired because you
ask a question.
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Well, you shouldnât.
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Go in, just talk to them, and see what happens.
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Like you said, if you develop that relationship,
over time that establishes trust.
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As trust is established, thereâs less need
to micromanager.
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Robert: We talked about that in a previous
episode, trust.
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You really need to trust your employees.
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Another area to think about, too, is holding
them accountable.
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How do you communicate effectively so that
you can define what they need to do and then
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hold them accountable.
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That can be both positive accountability and
negative accountability, right?
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You want to tell them theyâre doing a good
job and reward accomplishments of your team,
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but also try to figure out, when youâre
not meeting those deadlines, whatâs happening.
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Are you being too aggressive in your schedules
and your deadlines?
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Do you not have the right resources in your
team to get things done?
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That communication will help you figure out
from your employees where are things breaking
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down in this relationship, how can we do a
better job.
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Scott: Thatâs a really good point.
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I hadnât thought of it, but youâre absolutely
right.
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If you have good communication with your employees
and your team, you know whoâs effective
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at what.
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You know what your timelines are on things
generally.
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If youâre using Scrum or something, you
know your velocity in sprints.
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You know all these things because youâve
been doing your job for a while.
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Sometimes I think, though, the reason that
micromanagers are who they are is because
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they just want to be doing everything.
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Thatâs a natural instinct as a human.
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You want to be able to do everything, because
you trust yourself.
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If youâve got the insight and data into
how your team runs on a daily basis, you donât
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need to do that.
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If you are a micromanager, maybe you need
to look at some quantitative data to show
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how well your teamâs doing on a regular
basis.
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If youâre a McDonaldâs manager, figure
out how many hamburgers youâre selling.
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If youâre a software manager, figure out
what your team velocity is.
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Do something so that you can quantify that,
and thatâll let you step back, because youâll
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be like, âYou know what?
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Weâre on pace.
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I donât need to be up these guysâ butts
asking them questions all the time.â
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Robert: I mean, I think it can be a fine line,
especially if youâre just starting a business
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and you have a small team.
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For me, I have to jump in a lot of times to
get things done, just because I have to help
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move things along, so thereâs that fine
line between-
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Scott: Well, thatâs leadership, too.
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Thatâs leadership.
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Robert: Right, but itâs a fine line between
me stepping on peopleâs toes and making
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sure stuff gets done.
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I view myself as filling in the gaps to get
to the end product.
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Sometimes I have to fill in those gaps to
get there
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Scott: Sure.
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Robert: It definitely can be a balancing act.
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I try to communicate with people on my team
this is why Iâm doing this.
[1025]
Iâm not trying to step on your toes.
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People like that ownership of what theyâre
doing, and if someone comes in and starts
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changing things, people can get really annoyed
with that.
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Scott: Sure.
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So, letâs talk about this for a second.
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What is the opposite of a micromanager?
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Would that be an un-manager?
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Robert: No management.
[1046]
That is a problem, as well, right?
[1050]
Youâre not setting deadlines, youâre never
talking to people, and things just go off
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the rails because there is no one managing
the day-to-day aspects of things.
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Everyoneâs just kind of given a free pass
and saying, âAll right, just go to work.â
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Scott: Is that a danger, in your opinion,
to the-
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Robert: Yes.
[1070]
Scott: Well, yeah, that, but is it a danger
to have that flat org structure where nobody
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reports to anybody?
[1077]
That can kind of happen in some places.
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I think itâs one of those things where everyone
owns their own little property and they take
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it under their own ambition and itâs fine.
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I have one question: are you a micromanager,
Rob?
[1093]
Robert: I hope Iâm not.
[1094]
Scott: I know Iâm not.
[1095]
Iâm probably closer to the un-manager.
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Iâm like, âHey, hereâs what weâre
doing.
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Go do it.â
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Robert: For me, running a business, I just
donât have time to do that.
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I need people that can operate autonomously,
that can be given generally direction and
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start running with it.
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I just donât have time to hold peopleâs
hands and watch all their code and stuff like
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that.
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I just donât have that.
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Thatâs why I continuously bring on people
to help me, because I just donât have time
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to do that.
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I think if youâre starting a business, youâll
find that, as well, that you just donât
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have time to do the micromanagement.
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If you do have a lot of time to micromanage,
then I donât know, maybe youâre managing
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a huge division or something like that.
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You need to bring on the right people.
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Like we said, the three things is accountability,
communication, and trust.
[1144]
Scott: Absolutely.
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Yup, trust your employees.
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Itâll make things more efficient.
[1149]
Robert: See you next week.
[1150]
Thanks for listening to this episode of the
Stretch Goals podcast.
[1151]
You can access the show notes for this episode
and listen to other episodes by heading over
[1152]
to stretchgoals.fm.
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