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Coinbase President and COO: On operating the largest crypto platform - YouTube
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- So Emilie, thank you so
much for joining me today.
[2]
I really appreciate it.
- My pleasure.
[4]
- And to introduce Emilie,
- [Emilie] My pleasure.
[5]
- Emilie is the President
and COO of Coinbase,
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essentially operating Coinbase.
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Emilie you've taught me two things,
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which I found so transformational
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that I now share them with
every CEO that I coach
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and I always give you credit.
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And those two things are
decision-making through RAPIDs
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and a Biz Ops team.
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But rather than me continue
to be the one translating
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the learnings that you gave me.
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I thought it'd be fun for
the world to hear directly
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from you about RAPIDs and Biz Ops teams.
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What do you think about that?
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- I love that. Yep.
- Fantastic.
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I love talking to you about this, Matt.
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And I think it's so timely
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because I get this question
a lot too all the time,
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and I feel like there's a way
where we can package this up
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and make sure that people who could
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really use this information
can get it as quickly
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and effectively as possible.
So this is music to my ears.
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- Awesome. Okay, great.
Well then let's start with,
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with RAPIDs because I think these are
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- Yep.
- the ones that people have
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a difficult time making decisions.
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Before they learn about RAPIDs,
they need to get everybody
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into a room, to hear everybody's opinion,
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and then try to do it by consensus
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which of course never works.
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And then, they are never like sure
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who's actually deciding
and how are they deciding.
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And RAPIDSs, take care
of all those problems
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and make all those problems go away.
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So can you please explain
us, what a RAPID is,
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how it works at Coinbase,
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and maybe also what the pitfalls are.
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Cause a lot of times people
then start using RAPIDs,
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and then they get overwhelmed with like
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a thousand RAPIDs, get, you know, surfaced
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and like which ones should we be doing?
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And, oh my god, it's overwhelming.
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Not only what it is, but how
to roll it out effectively.
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- Absolutely. Okay.
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So, let me start by saying
the number one question I get
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from candidates that are
interviewing at Coinbase is
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how do you do decision-making?
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And these are people
from Google, Facebook,
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every other tech company, you can imagine,
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why are they asking this?
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Because decision-making is
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bureaucratic, painful, awful,
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wherever they work.
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And they want to be at
an organization where
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there is no weird decision-making
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where there is no passive
aggressive BS, right?
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And so I'm really delighted
to talk to them about
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the way that we use RAPIDs.
I learned about RAPIDs.
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It was a Bain construct that
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Jeff Weiner brought to LinkedIn
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and we started using them.
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And then I took it to Coinbase because
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as we scaled so dramatically,
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it was clear that
decision-making used to be
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so easy and became so hard.
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And so we needed a different construct.
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People used to be able
to go, go in the hall
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to ask Brian Armstrong for a decision.
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As soon as we started
growing exponentially,
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they could no longer do that.
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And there were no rules
of the road in terms of
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how can I get a decision made?
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The basic construct of the RAPID is this.
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There is one recommend. There is an agree,
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maybe a couple of agrees.
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There is a perform.
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Who is going to actually
perform and implement this?
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There are inputs. Who are
people that are going to be
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relevant to this that can
help provide input about
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whatever this decision being made is?
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And then there is one decide.
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The recommend and the decide
cannot be the same person.
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There can only be one decide.
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An important goal of the RAPID
is a decision being made.
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It is not about consensus.
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Consensus should probably never be a goal.
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It's great way of creating
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a committee like culture,
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where everybody has to agree on everything
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that that should never be a goal.
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The person who is making the decision
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understands the inputs,
understands the thoughts
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of those who have good thoughts
about this recommendation.
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And then they can make
an informed decision.
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We have a couple other
nuances that I would just add.
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One is, is it a type one
or a type two decision?
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And this is a, a Jeff Bezos construct
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that we've added in which is,
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is it existential or is it not?
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If it's an existential decision,
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then typically it's going
to have to be the CEO
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or the COO who is the decide.
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If it is a reversible decision,
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maybe you can push that
authority down to the VP level
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or below, and hopefully
start creating some,
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some level of delegation in the company.
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So folks are empowered and
have some level of autonomy.
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An example of an existential
decision would be like,
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are we going to enter Japan?
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Because once we start laying
all the foundations for that,
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it's very hard to unwind that, right?
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Something that would be less existential
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would be something like,
should we launch this feature?
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It's still going to be
painful if we pull it back.
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But, it's reversible, if for some reason
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it doesn't yield the same
things that we want it to.
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What is good about a RAPID is that,
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you have everything in writing.
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I can see very clearly what
everybody's opinion is,
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and if they agree or disagree
with the recommendation.
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What that means is that
in a year from now, Matt,
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I don't say "Matt, I thought
you said this in the room".
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It's very clear. We can
go look back at the RAPID.
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We don't have to guess what
somebody said in the room
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or remember something in a way
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that is not already documented.
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It is also good in the
sense that, it is out there.
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The recommended puts this out here
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and now it is up to the
decide to make a decision.
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In fact, at Coinbase, the
way that we implement it is
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we reward people for
making decisions quickly.
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So if there's a RAPID, for example,
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that lasts two weeks to make a decision,
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that's a failure mode.
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We want decisions to generally be made
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once they're documented within 48 hours,
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unless there's other
information to be had.
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I think the, the downfalls
are problems with the RAPID.
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It's, it's a framework like
every framework has pitfalls.
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I found in life that like,
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if you kind of pick a
framework and go with it,
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it's going to have pros and cons.
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But if you have to have it,
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it's good because the company understands
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how to use it, when to use it, et cetera.
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The couple of things that we've seen
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that are problematic about
the RAPIDs in general,
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people want to be too
polite and over include
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too many people on the RAPID.
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So sometimes I'll see
five agrees on the thing
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and I'm like, nope, cut
that down to two people.
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You don't have to be polite. In fact,
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I'm giving you, I'm telling
you, you must not be polite
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and they could maybe be
an input at the most.
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Another is.
- And
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and to be clear and agree as someone
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who's got a veto power.
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So it's actually
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- Yes, right.
- pretty bloody dangerous
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to have an agree.
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- Exactly, it's a very powerful role
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and it should be given accordingly.
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It's very hard in the beginning
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when you first launched RAPIDs
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as to who should be on
what part of the RAPID.
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What I found is that
the only way to do that
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is just start testing it
out. So you ask the team,
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who's proposing something
to actually put down
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the different roles of the RAPID.
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And then you can say like,
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"Hey, show me who you've got on it".
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And I can tell you before
you even write the RAPID,
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if that feels right or not, or if,
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"Oh, that definitely
should have been Brian"
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because it was above X hundred
million dollar decision
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or whatever it is.
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And so the executive
team has to be helpful in
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helping those teams figure out
who should be on the RAPID.
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I think there's a point at
which you should just recognize
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RAPID should be used for complex
cross-functional decisions.
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If you're using it for generic
run-of-the-mill decisions,
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then you're probably not
operating your company
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the way you should, right?
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Because these do take time and effort.
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For example, product launch decisions,
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all that kind of stuff.
Those shouldn't be RAPIDs.
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Those should be part of
an existing fabric of
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how you operate the business.
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If these things are checked off,
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you can launch your feature.
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If you've checked off the
security requirements,
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the compliance requirements, whatever.
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So you just have to make sure
you use RAPIDs judiciously
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so that it doesn't become this
overly RAPIDified culture.
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- That actually is the,
the most common problem.
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when people start to use RAPIDs
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or issues proposed
solutions, whichever they do.
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And issues proposed solutions is basically
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a RAPID just without the agree
part, without any veto power.
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- No, I was just going to say, Matt,
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like you taught me the problem
proposed solution thing.
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And I think that to me is the
lightweight form of the RAPID,
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just as you said.
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So when I have an issue with something
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that's going on in the organization,
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and I don't want, want to
do the heavyweight RAPID,
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maybe I'll just say,
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"I think our performance
process is broken".
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I'm going to write
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"problem, I think our
performance processes broken".
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Proposed solutions,
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"Benchmark some of the
other performance processes
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at companies that we admire
for their performance culture",
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blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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The thing I like at the PPS is
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it's a 10 minute exercise,
not an hour long exercise,
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- Right on.
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- but part of the beauty
of like a PPS or RAPID is
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you do want to empower
people lower in the org
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to be able to flag things
that they think are big deals.
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Like, you don't want a
completely hierarchical culture
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where a political manager
for example would be like,
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"No, I don't want you to raise that
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cause it'll make me look
bad" or anything like that.
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A tone from the top is, if you
have a really important thing
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that you want to raise
through a PPS that you think
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we could be doing better as
a company, you go for it.
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Like, we want to see that
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and you can lob it in to
the CEO if you need to.
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- Fantastic, I love it.
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But either way,
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both have usually Google Docs
with a call-out for, you know,
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at mention, all the people
that you want to comment on it.
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And what I found in
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- Yeah.
- other companies when they've
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started using this, that have, you know,
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several hundred employees or more,
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all of a sudden junior level people,
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all of a sudden realize,
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oh my gosh, I have the
power to write one of these?
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Now they just go.
- Yeas.
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And all of a sudden you get hundreds
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- Right.
- of written, you know
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RAPIDs, or PPS
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or whatever you wanted whichever format.
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Is everyone supposed to
respond to all of them?
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do they have to respond to all of them?
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There's no way to prioritize or to filter.
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And so having a filtration
process is actually key
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before rolling them out.
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And so what is the filtration
process that Coinbase uses?
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- This is the role of managers, right?
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And frankly, at the beginning,
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it's going to be the executive
team and the VP level folks
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who can kind of weed through these.
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You have a system where managers can say
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"Hey, listen, love that
you were so enthusiastic
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about the RAPID. This is
probably not suited for a RAPID.
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Maybe you just had a product
idea that you wanted to
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lob into the product team."
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There's probably a better way to do that.
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And that's where the
human interaction layer
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of this has to take place.
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And then you set the culture
and people understand it
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and they help each other.
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And then they've kind of learn
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what's appropriate for RAPID or not.
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- Perfect. So every time,
sounds like whenever someone
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creates a RAPID in Coinbase,
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they vet it through their manager
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who helps them decide whether
or not it's worth pushing out
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and how it should be pushed
out, up until the CEO
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Brian can always, as the
apex manager, can always say,
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"Hey, we're not dealing with this".
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Probably also assigns the decision-makers.
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That's another thing that
I've found is that people,
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you've talked about type one and type two,
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People would propose a decision maker,
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but they're just taking a guess.
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They don't know really who it should be.
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And there should be
some authority who says,
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"Actually the decision is going to be
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that person over there".
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And you already talked about how
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- That's right.
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- if it's type two, it
shouldn't be Brian or you.
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And frankly, probably there
are very few type one decisions
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you've mentioned going to japan.
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- There are very few type one decisions
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but sometimes when you're scaling
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these crazy existential questions come up.
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And so it's good to make
sure there's alignment
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at the executive level. That's
another thing that's nice.
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If you can make your RAPIDs transparent to
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some of the senior leaders in the company
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and kind of go through them, with them,
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it's really nice for
them to be able to see
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how we do make decisions,
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because then they can
emulate that, that thinking.
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- What you said earlier
was around context.
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You take these RAPIDs and
then once a decision is made,
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you make them available
to some group of people,
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hopefully the wider, the better.
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- Yep.
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- Because then not only do
they know what the decision is,
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but they know why it got
created. And a lot of times
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- Yes.
- people hear a decision,
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but they don't know why it got created.
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They're like "That was stupid".
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Or "I don't buy into that"
or "What's going on?"
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and they dismiss it or
aren't enthusiastic about it.
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Whereas if you share with
them, why, and they go,
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"Oh, now I get it".
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It's sort of like,
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in the military,
- Yes.
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giving an order with context
instead of just going,
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"Take that hill, take that hill,
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because we need to control the transport.
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You know, the highway underneath it,
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but you can't take the hill.
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Maybe there's some other way to control
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the highway underneath it".
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And so, if they know the why
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- Exactly.
- they can actually better
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implement the decision that's being made.
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- And that's the only way you scale,
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if you expect people to just
to be able to deduce things
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from the final decision,
as opposed to the context,
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they're not going to learn.
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- Agreed. I love it, Emilie.
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Thank you very much. That was fantastic.
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- Yeah.
- Now let's shift gears
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for a second and let's talk
about the other thing that I,
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that I learned from you.
I learned many things,
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but these two, two
highlights, is a Biz Ops team.
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And let me describe you
what I'm sharing with others
[659]
of what the Biz Ops team
is and what the role is.
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And then let's have you alter
it to what it really is.
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What I noticed was Emilie,
[665]
that you had a team of
folks at Coinbase who were
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primarily ex-consultants.
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McKinsey, BCG, Bain types they were just
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very good communicators, highly organized,
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smart problem solvers,
project manager types.
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They weren't technical in any sense.
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They weren't engineers.
They weren't lawyers.
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They didn't have any technical knowledge.
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They were just really
good problem solvers.
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And what would happen is,
whenever there was a problem
[692]
going on at Coinbase, we'd say,
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"What's, what's, I don't
understand what's going on?
[696]
Why is this not working?"
[697]
You would send one of these
people in to go investigate
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and they would come back
with why it was happening
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and what the solution was to fix it.
[704]
Then I think you took another
radical step at Coinbase.
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I don't think you'd done
this before at Coinbase,
[709]
but at Coinbase, you then
said, "if the issue was,
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well there's just a department
that just isn't succeeding.
[715]
Like the department head is
just not a good manager".
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You then took one of these Biz Ops folks,
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launched them into that department,
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and had them actually run the department.
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Now, this is a scary moment
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when you did it for the first time,
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because that's not how
you'd used the role before,
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but I'd love to hear how it turned out
[731]
and you continue to use
Biz Ops in that way.
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So that's my understanding
of, of what Biz Ops is.
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- Now, what is it really?
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- That's it, in a nutshell.
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So, you put it beautifully Matt.
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To think about what issue founders
[743]
are really struggling with now.
[744]
They keep asking me, do I need a COO?
[745]
One of the first things I
would do before you like,
[748]
just jump to the conclusion
of needing a heavyweight COO
[751]
is to say, do I have a great Biz Ops team?
[753]
I think of Biz OPs as exactly
the same way you do Matt,
[756]
which is a special forces
brigade or whatever.
[759]
They're generalist athletes.
They're super smart.
[761]
They know how to problem solve.
[763]
They're excellent communicators,
[764]
and they can just get shit done.
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Examples of this may be
[767]
we need to benchmark world-class
compliance organizations
[771]
and FinTech and financial services
[773]
and figure out what we want for Coinbase
[775]
and how we build that here.
[776]
It might be that we are
not data-driven enough
[779]
in recruiting. And we don't
understand where the gaps are
[782]
in our recruiting process.
[783]
We understand that, the top of the funnel
[785]
and the bottom of the funnel,
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but we don't understand
anything in between.
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We can deploy that team to
go find out all of that data,
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create a great process and fix everything.
[793]
And it can be strategic too. It can be.
[794]
How do we create a great
business planning process
[797]
for the company? All of this is to say,
[799]
how do we enable things to
ship as quickly as possible
[803]
and as effectively as possible?
[804]
such that the founder, who
is likely probably product
[807]
and engineering minded
can do what they do best,
[810]
and that there's a team or
a person supplementing them
[813]
by saying like,
[814]
I'm going to make your life
as frictionless as possible.
[816]
That's how I think of Biz Ops.
[817]
I'm very proud of, of
what we built at Coinbase.
[819]
I think, you know, I
learned this at LinkedIn,
[821]
Google famously also had
a great Biz Ops team.
[823]
And whenever you work with these people,
[825]
they're just a different
level like Balaji Srinivasan,
[828]
whom we worked with at
Coinbase, as you know, Matt.
[830]
He's not one to you know,
dole out compliments
[832]
and as he was leaving Coinbase,
[834]
one of the things he said is like,
[834]
"The thing I learned
from you, Emilie is like,
[836]
these consultants are
actually pretty darn good.
[838]
And they add a ton of value".
[839]
That's like the ultimate
compliment to the Biz Ops team
[842]
in terms of the value they added.
[843]
One of the other cool things about Biz Ops
[845]
that I would say is that over time,
[846]
what you'll find is there's two different
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career paths for them.
[849]
One is maybe they want
to be a Biz Ops lifer.
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That's awesome. Cause what
we can, we'll take them
[852]
for all day long.
[853]
The other is that, because
they then parachute
[856]
into these other problems at the company,
[857]
people see them, they
want to work with them
[859]
cause they're superstars.
[860]
And so you see this
incredible internal mobility.
[863]
And that was actually a measure of success
[865]
that we measured at LinkedIn,
[866]
which was that the Biz Ops
team disproportionately
[869]
was kind of sought after and
recruited within the company.
[871]
And that, that was a measure of success.
[873]
It was like, oh yeah,
[874]
like they're doing their tours of duty.
[875]
Cause they're crushing it.
[876]
And we want them to
move on to more and more
[878]
other roles. And then over time
[881]
they can rise up to be
leaders in the organization.
[883]
- Yeah.
[883]
And I'm going to go for
a specific example here.
[885]
Cause I think it's important
for the world to hear this.
[887]
As I recall it, there was a point where
[889]
the people department wasn't functioning
[891]
the way it needed to, you
were sort of at a loss.
[893]
You know, it's going to take six months
[895]
to hire a chief people officer at least
[897]
and get the person in the seat.
[898]
Like, what do you do in the interim?
[899]
And, you went with a decision.
I think it was Grant.
[902]
You just put him in charge of people.
[904]
No one knew how it was going
to work. How did it turn out?
[907]
- Grant is now head of recruiting.
[908]
And I want to just, I
want to make sure we,
[911]
we say this the right way,
[912]
the people organization wasn't scaling
[914]
to the needs of thousands of employees.
[916]
- Got it.
[917]
- I think that the way that
it had been run historically
[919]
was like, it was a startup
[920]
and the way that it was run was a startup.
[922]
And now we needed to kind
of take it to the next level
[924]
in terms of data and,
[926]
and making sure that we're
doing the best job we can
[929]
for a world where we have to
hire thousands of employees,
[932]
manage thousands of employees.
[933]
What are those practices
that we need to implement?
[935]
What are the people that
we need to hire for that?
[937]
Grant, who is an amazing,
he was my head of Biz Ops.
[940]
He's a superstar, super fun to work with.
[942]
He's like, okay. Like I,
[944]
I would love to help that team.
[945]
So what does he do? He parachutes in,
[947]
he takes over the recruiting function
[949]
and he ended up loving it so much that he,
[950]
he came to me one day and he was like,
[952]
Emilie, I'm sorry. I love Biz Ops,
[953]
but I really love recruiting.
[955]
And now he's in this incredible
role, running recruiting,
[958]
where he is responsible for
hiring thousands of people,
[961]
talent is our number
one operating priority.
[963]
There, it will never change.
[964]
And so you have this incredible
person at the helm of that,
[966]
like, fueling it with
energy and athleticism
[969]
and just taking it to the next level.
[971]
- Awesome. I mean,
[972]
that's the key point there
is that these Biz Ops folks
[975]
are able to actually
run a whole department
[977]
very successfully.
[979]
- Yeah
- Right? I love it. Fantastic.
[980]
But I'll ask you one more question.
[982]
There's another thing that,
that's unique at Coinbase
[984]
and that is Brian recognized
that he didn't love
[988]
internal operations. He
didn't love accountability
[991]
and one-on-ones and running team meetings
[994]
and having everyone prepare for them.
[995]
And what he really
loves is product vision,
[997]
which frankly, most
founders that I work with,
[999]
that's actually what they love.
[1000]
And I think he also finally recognized
[1002]
that if he doesn't love something,
[1003]
he's not going to be great at it.
[1004]
Even though he sort of,
for a long time felt
[1006]
that the CEO must be doing the one-on-ones
[1008]
and the team, running the
team meetings, et cetera.
[1010]
He finally gave into like,
[1012]
well, I'm probably not good at it.
[1013]
And I can see over there there's Emilie
[1015]
and she's awesome at it.
[1017]
Why don't I just let her do it?
[1018]
And he finally put you in that role
[1020]
of literally running
the internal operations
[1023]
of the company, which is the company.
[1025]
While he is still heavily
involved in product,
[1027]
heavily involved in the
messaging to the world,
[1029]
but the day-to-day of
one-on-ones and team meetings
[1033]
and coordinating the company is you.
[1036]
And in my opinion, that's when
Coinbase took a hockey stick
[1040]
and started to soar to the moon.
[1042]
Is that what happened?
[1043]
- Thank you so much for saying that Matt,
[1045]
the combination of Brian
and I unlocks value
[1048]
because we are very
complimentary to one another
[1051]
in terms of our skill sets and
what we actually enjoy doing.
[1054]
He's amazing at seeing what
the next frontier of crypto
[1059]
and technology is. What I
am good at is, and this,
[1061]
by the way, this is why I was in Corp Dev.
[1063]
I love being around founders because
[1064]
I am not the creative type. I
like to be around that energy.
[1067]
Cause I'm super inspired
by these risk-takers
[1070]
and these people who
have these bonkers ideas.
[1072]
And what I can do is, I
often hear him say something,
[1074]
I'll digest it and I'll be
like, wait, that was crazy.
[1077]
What? did he say that?
And then I'll be like,
[1078]
actually, that wasn't so crazy.
[1079]
And how can I help him
operationalize that?
[1081]
So an example is,
[1082]
before COVID, Brian was like,
[1084]
we got to go to a remote first world,
[1086]
Coinbase needs to go into the cloud.
[1088]
That's the way the world is going to go.
[1089]
And you know, me in my very
kind of centralized headquarters
[1093]
kind of mindset, was like,
that's not going to work.
[1096]
That doesn't work. I
know that doesn't work,
[1097]
but I thought about it.
[1098]
And then during COVID we were just like,
[1100]
this is so obvious now I can't believe
[1102]
it wasn't obvious before.
[1103]
And so we just went all in on remote.
[1104]
I helped him operationalize that.
[1106]
So he comes up with these
amazing ideas I digest
[1108]
and I help operationalize.
[1109]
And I think that's the winning combo.
[1111]
The winning combo is also trust.
[1113]
And I credit you Matt for
helping us build that trust
[1115]
with one another and kind
of ripping off that bandaid.
[1117]
And that's why I think when
you are hiring like a COO type,
[1121]
it's almost better that you
hire somebody who's like
[1123]
going to be running a smaller
function within the company.
[1125]
See how you gel with them and
see if you want to give them
[1127]
the chance to kind of, you know,
[1129]
rise up to that role over time,
[1130]
- Totally.
[1131]
- As opposed to trying to put
in some cold Turkey process,
[1134]
person from the outside
and hoping that everything
[1136]
just magically, that
chemistry starts manifesting
[1139]
it's super high beta.
[1141]
That's how we work together.
And honestly it's magic now,
[1144]
because we understand
each other's swim lanes.
[1146]
He appreciates the stuff I
do on the operational side.
[1149]
He might not want to be
in the details of it,
[1150]
but he appreciates a good OKR.
[1152]
He appreciates the good
stuff that comes out of that.
[1154]
And in turn, I love all
the ideas he comes up with
[1158]
and that's the energy
that I get. And that,
[1160]
that to me is the magic
of what you can get
[1161]
with two different types.
(upbeat music begins)
[1163]
- Fantastic. I love it.
[1164]
Emilie, that was fantastic.
[1165]
This is going to benefit a lot of people.
[1166]
- Awesome. Thanks so
much for having me, Matt.
[1168]
- Awesome, definitely.
- And thank you.
[1170]
(upbeat music)
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