Shannon Curry: Johnny Depp & Amber Heard Trial, Marriage, Dating & Love | Lex Fridman Podcast #366 - YouTube

Channel: Lex Fridman

[0]
so contempt is criticism on steroids
[2]
this is what John gottman calls sulfuric
[5]
acid for love nothing will erode a
[8]
relationship quicker than contempt
[10]
contempt is when you are looking at your
[12]
partner from a superior position so you
[16]
are eye rolling you are name calling
[19]
um there's a mockery mocking even
[22]
physical mockery imitating them
[24]
imitating their voice contempt is meant
[27]
to just take the legs out from your
[29]
partner make them feel pathetic
[30]
ridiculous
[32]
um and it can be abusive but
[36]
um most people have engaged in contempt
[38]
at some point in their relationship
[39]
lower level would be sort of the eye
[41]
rolling but that is the biggest
[43]
predictor of a split
[47]
the following is a conversation with
[48]
Shannon Curry a clinical and forensic
[50]
psychologist who conducts research
[52]
therapy and psychological evaluations
[55]
pertaining to trauma violence and
[57]
relationships she received worldwide
[60]
attention in April of last year by
[63]
giving a lengthy televised testimony on
[65]
her psychological evaluation of Amber
[68]
Heard during the Johnny Depp Amber Heard
[70]
trial I found her testimony to be an
[73]
eloquent description of complex
[75]
psychological Concepts and evaluations
[77]
procedures so I reached out for a chat
[81]
in person she was brilliant funny
[83]
thoughtful and truly kind I really
[87]
really enjoyed this conversation this is
[89]
the Lex Friedman podcast to support it
[91]
please check out our sponsors in the
[93]
description and now dear friends here's
[96]
Shannon Curry
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Charles Bukowski said that love is a fog
[101]
that burns away with the first daylight
[103]
of reality I love that quote uh do you
[105]
think romantic love Fades away in this
[107]
way Makowski uh does it does it have to
[110]
fade the truth is that you have all of
[112]
these chemicals pumping through your
[114]
body you're essentially high on heroin
[115]
in the beginning of a romance and you're
[118]
going to have these rose-colored glasses
[120]
on everything your partner does is
[122]
magical and but really it's the novelty
[125]
it's just like going on a vacation
[126]
you're fully present you're just attuned
[128]
to the magic of another human being
[130]
moment to moment and then on top of that
[133]
you have you're just flooded with
[134]
dopamine so you're high on drugs and we
[137]
can't go on like that you will die if
[139]
you are using these kinds of chemicals
[142]
all the time all day long so eventually
[145]
our bodies are sort of made to dial it
[148]
down we've made it I mean we're
[150]
evolutionary beings we are doing the
[152]
same thing we did 200 000 years ago to
[155]
find a mate procreate spend enough time
[157]
with each other that we have sex with
[158]
whole bunch of times and make babies
[160]
now we've changed the rules of the game
[162]
we're living you know almost until we're
[164]
100 years old in some cases we're making
[167]
these marriage commitments that last
[170]
half a century and uh we're expecting it
[174]
to be all because of love and we're
[177]
signing these contracts based on how we
[179]
feel when we're high on these drugs so
[180]
the reality is we know based on the re
[183]
and and I'm also talking about certain
[185]
Western civilizations here because as
[188]
you know there are arranged marriages
[190]
and a lot of times those marriages if
[193]
we're looking at longevity are actually
[195]
way more satisfied than people who are
[197]
marrying for love which logically makes
[200]
sense if you're making a decision based
[202]
on a feeling that is basically based on
[205]
endorphins and dopamine and oxytocin
[208]
I wouldn't sign a contract just because
[210]
of a feeling necessary you know for 50
[213]
years whereas an arranged marriage if
[215]
you have your elders kind of deciding
[217]
for you that this partner has a bunch of
[219]
traits that you're going to appreciate
[221]
more and more over time
[223]
I think there's some wisdom there so you
[225]
don't think that feeling could be a
[227]
foundation for a 50-year relationship
[229]
well I don't think that specific feeling
[232]
you're having based on drugs is going to
[236]
be the same feeling you have 20 30 40
[239]
years down the line if you're going to
[241]
wake up and turn to your partner when
[243]
you're 70 and think oh my God I'm so
[246]
glad you're hot you are so hot yeah then
[249]
sure marry for hotness but if you've
[252]
been through life a little bit and I
[253]
think most people who are on a second
[255]
marriage know [ __ ] happens in life it is
[259]
hard you're gonna have you know maybe a
[261]
kid with special needs or your dad gets
[264]
Dementia or you get diagnosed with
[267]
cancer who are you going to want to come
[269]
home to who is going to hold you when
[272]
you are sobbing on the floor and tell
[274]
you we're going to get through it
[276]
together who's going to know the names
[277]
of your kids special ed teacher and the
[280]
process for getting a 504 plan or is it
[282]
going to be you on your own I think
[284]
those things matter but doesn't that
[286]
hotness don't those drugs kind of
[289]
solidify into a deeper appreciation of
[291]
the other person
[293]
into something you could call Beauty yes
[296]
uh they can but but isn't that the same
[299]
isn't that the same thing when you know
[301]
when you notice the beauty of another
[302]
human being aren't you aren't you high
[304]
on drugs still you're making it sound
[306]
like there's like a a brief rock star
[308]
period of going on heroin and then it's
[312]
over but like can't you be on heroin
[313]
your whole life I have some good news
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that was something I think one of the
[318]
reasons I got into studying
[320]
relationships was because I wanted that
[322]
right so I'm a scientist but I also love
[325]
art and I love writing and I love
[327]
literature I wanted to know that true
[330]
love could be real but as a scientist I
[333]
am cynical I just need some data and
[336]
when so I practice the type of therapy
[339]
called the gottman method and I love
[341]
that because it tends to be well it is
[344]
one of the most evidence-based therapies
[347]
we have based on John and Julie gottman
[350]
two psychologists who have been
[351]
researching relationships for now about
[353]
50 years and this therapy happens to be
[357]
for couples they found that you
[359]
absolutely can make longevity work in a
[363]
relationship you can build you are not
[366]
just settling for companionship but you
[368]
can have passion and intimacy and
[370]
growing love and appreciation but there
[373]
is a blueprint a set of skills that we
[375]
were never given we're not taught in
[376]
school we changed the rules of the game
[378]
and we haven't learned the rules yet
[381]
and uh the government method for couples
[383]
therapy kind of gives you a few
[385]
guidelines the rules for longevity in a
[387]
relationship yeah they did a beautiful
[389]
job at taking these findings they had
[392]
through you know Decades of research
[394]
quantifying it and then codifying it
[397]
into a therapy method it's really skills
[400]
based I tell couples when they're
[402]
starting out with me that they're
[403]
essentially going to be starting a class
[406]
so what's the five to one Golden Rule
[408]
what I read is there's the kind of
[410]
balance you can achieve of
[413]
uh how many interactions you have in a
[416]
relationships that are positive versus
[417]
negative and I think that's what the
[420]
five to one means but basically there
[422]
should be a kind of an empirical
[425]
like if you just look back over over a
[427]
month how many of the interactions were
[429]
positive for the day or the day
[432]
right so the the idea of this ratio
[436]
um well it's not an idea it was a
[437]
finding it is uh research finding that
[440]
the gottman's got after looking at
[442]
thousands of couples
[444]
um and codifying these interactions that
[446]
they were observing couples that tend to
[449]
be satisfied in their relationships that
[453]
are happier they have better health Etc
[455]
they are having approximately five
[459]
positive interactions to each negative
[461]
and I want to be clear about what I'm
[464]
defining as positive and negative here
[466]
so this doesn't necessarily mean that
[468]
you're these don't need to be big
[470]
sweeping romantic gestures buying
[472]
flowers having sex these are things like
[475]
paying attention to what we call your
[477]
partner's bids we make these bids for
[480]
affection for connection all the time in
[484]
our relationships not just with our
[485]
partners but with our friends our
[486]
co-workers and we may not even know what
[489]
our style of bid is but if you see them
[491]
on a sheet you can pretty quickly
[492]
identify them bids could be wanting to
[495]
show your partner tell your partner
[496]
something and have them be proud of you
[498]
it could be wanting to go buy groceries
[502]
with your partner doing things together
[503]
hey you want to come with me it could be
[505]
telling a joke and hoping that your wife
[508]
looks up from her email on the computer
[510]
and acknowledges it if she laughs then
[513]
you've got a positive but if I don't
[516]
even look up that's a negative right so
[519]
it's not necessarily that I'm calling my
[520]
husband an [ __ ] it's just am I
[523]
connecting with him am I meeting those
[525]
bids for connection and vice versa but
[528]
do those also give you a guide of how
[530]
you should behave
[532]
well I think what's really important is
[534]
actually asking your partner or paying
[537]
attention to what your partner's bids
[538]
are because what matters to Ty my
[541]
husband may not matter to you for
[543]
instance I mean Ty's bar is so low with
[546]
me I thank God what defines the positive
[549]
interaction right like he just wants me
[552]
once become if if he wants a water when
[555]
I get up to get myself one just be a
[557]
basic decent considerate person is all
[560]
he asks of me whereas mine might be sort
[563]
of like stay up later with me watch a
[565]
show
[566]
um go to bed at the same time as me or
[569]
um know about the people in my life that
[571]
sort of a thing I should highlight this
[573]
and I hope hopefully it's okay that you
[575]
were running a little bit late and you
[576]
sent me this text which is which people
[579]
do really rarely and there's a subtle
[582]
act of kindness within that text so the
[584]
the you the text you sent was that
[588]
um I just decreased the amount of stress
[590]
in your life or something like this by
[591]
saying it's cool but that means that you
[594]
were you're you're signaling that you
[596]
were stressed
[597]
because you care enough to be there on
[600]
time and that was like that made me feel
[603]
really special I was like oh you know
[605]
people don't know people don't often
[608]
don't always do that because that puts
[610]
you also that makes you vulnerable
[611]
vulnerable and I actually thought that
[614]
after I sent it but I feel that most of
[616]
the day any interaction like oh God I
[619]
just expose myself but absolutely I was
[621]
excited to be here and I didn't want you
[624]
to think that I didn't care
[626]
I think being a therapist has shown me
[629]
that it really it's so lucky to be in
[633]
that position because you meet people
[634]
that you would have thought are cooler
[637]
than you or smarter than you or just
[639]
somehow impervious to life and you
[642]
realize that we are all in it together
[643]
we all want to be cared about and liked
[647]
we all would want to be liked as a
[649]
baseline I some people will say they
[651]
don't care but everybody does it's human
[654]
and I have gotten much better being a
[657]
therapist much more comfortable showing
[659]
caring showing love and genuineness and
[662]
vulnerability than I think I ever would
[663]
have been otherwise and that kind of
[665]
vulnerability is what's required to do a
[667]
positive interaction in a relationship I
[669]
think so and and people have different
[671]
levels of comfort right so
[674]
um but as long as it's working for both
[675]
partners and typically you have to
[677]
communicate to figure out what your
[679]
partner what makes your partner feel
[681]
cared about however you might be working
[684]
for instance with an older couple and I
[686]
have a couple that's perfectly happy and
[688]
they sort of have a system it works for
[690]
them if there's some sort of a rupture
[693]
if they get in some sort of a
[694]
disagreement they don't talk it out she
[696]
might go to the store run an errand
[698]
doing do a little shopping he'll work in
[700]
the wood shop and then they'll come back
[702]
and there is a repair attempt though but
[705]
it's maybe she'll say hey do you want to
[707]
have dinner or come you know I made your
[709]
favorite dinner and or he'll say hey I
[712]
recorded your favorite show you want to
[713]
watch it tonight so they don't need to
[715]
process it but there is an understanding
[717]
between them that we're still in this
[718]
together we care about each other and
[721]
there's a repair attempt
[722]
most people need to be able to process
[724]
it verbally and talk about what happened
[726]
not all so for most people if there's a
[729]
conflict you should talk about and
[731]
resolve it and repair it versus like
[733]
just put it behind you I I don't want to
[736]
say should I guess it depends on the
[738]
couple yeah everybody processes emotions
[740]
differently everybody handles emotional
[742]
expression differently I mean I have
[745]
couples where I have one person in the
[747]
partnership who has autism and the other
[749]
doesn't and so they're obviously going
[752]
to have different ways of communicating
[754]
or processing what happened we all have
[756]
different perspectives it really depends
[759]
on what makes a person feel like it's
[762]
been repaired what makes a person feel
[764]
understood does that need to be verbal
[766]
or in the case of that older couple I
[768]
have where they know they understand one
[771]
another because there's a gentleness
[772]
toward one another after
[774]
what are some common ways relationships
[776]
fail that you've observed and all the
[778]
therapy you've done well the governments
[781]
identified what they call the Four
[783]
Horsemen of the Apocalypse so okay
[786]
I mean I could just keep it simple and
[789]
go off their research so they're those
[792]
are four different behaviors that they
[794]
identify in couples or that you can
[797]
identify in couples that are really
[798]
highly predictive of a divorce some more
[800]
than others but I'll start with the
[802]
lower ones
[803]
so one thing that we by the way actually
[806]
we all do these things these would be in
[810]
that five to one ratio you'd want to
[812]
stay away from some of these these are
[813]
the ones so as they pile up now that
[816]
ratio is going to get imbalanced and
[818]
then you are headed for a split okay so
[821]
the first is criticism
[823]
so criticism is when we have a complaint
[825]
complaints are normal but instead of
[828]
owning our own problems our own feelings
[830]
we assume that our perspective is com
[833]
the only valid accurate perspective and
[836]
so we uh take it upon ourselves to tell
[839]
our partner what is wrong with them okay
[841]
so there there's essentially no real
[845]
belief that they might have a valid
[847]
perspective too so
[849]
this could look like you never helped me
[852]
out in that with the house or even
[855]
um you're so lazy like can't I just get
[857]
you for five seconds to help with the
[859]
kids or something like that
[861]
um and then what happens is Horsemen
[864]
number two defensiveness so uh not
[867]
everybody is defensive just because they
[869]
were criticized some people just are
[870]
more prone to defensiveness than others
[872]
none of us really like admitting our
[875]
faults so it's pretty natural
[877]
but defensiveness is essentially making
[879]
excuses or Worse turning it around on
[882]
your partner
[883]
not accepting any responsibility and
[886]
definitely not validating what they're
[888]
feeling
[889]
now if you get criticized enough or if
[892]
you get really flooded that flooding is
[894]
what happens when our heart rate goes up
[896]
kind of around 100 beats per minute our
[898]
frontal lobe shuts down that's our
[900]
thoughtful brain our logical brain and
[903]
our reptilian kind of hindbrain takes
[905]
over our thinking
[907]
and we just go into fight or flight in a
[909]
white week we just want to annihilate
[910]
our partner instead instead of say
[913]
anything that would be helpful to the
[914]
relationship
[915]
so if you're getting flooded you could
[918]
do a couple things you could get super
[920]
critical you could get contemptuous
[921]
which I'll talk about in a second it's
[923]
the last Horseman or you do the third
[925]
Horseman which is stonewalling and in
[928]
their research the gottman's found that
[930]
men are actually more likely to
[932]
Stonewall I also am someone who
[934]
stonewalls but it's where you just sort
[939]
of Disconnect from the conversation you
[942]
shut down you turn away you can
[945]
physically even turn away kind of arms
[947]
cross but you're just you're shut off
[949]
and stonewalling happens usually because
[952]
you get flooded you feel like you can't
[954]
win you don't know what to do to make
[955]
the situation better it feels pretty
[957]
hopeless and talking feels unproductive
[960]
so you can see how in a typical
[963]
heterosexual relationship the gender
[965]
Dynamic we know that women tend to use
[968]
criticism more often because they're the
[970]
ones that typically raise issues
[972]
verbally and then if men are feeling
[975]
more criticized that they tend to
[977]
Stonewall and it becomes this vicious
[979]
cycle of then more criticism but the
[982]
criticism is really just a plea to be
[984]
loved and get your partner to show you
[986]
they care and then the man tends to feel
[990]
like he can't do anything right this
[992]
isn't even productive if I say anything
[993]
I'm just going to make it worse and they
[996]
don't have any real you haven't given
[998]
them a specific need a solution
[1000]
something they can do to shine for you
[1001]
so they turn away and where's the uh
[1004]
contempt all right so contempt is
[1006]
criticism on steroids this is what John
[1009]
gottman calls sulfuric acid for love
[1012]
nothing will erode a relationship
[1014]
quicker than contempt contempt is when
[1017]
you are looking at your partner from a
[1019]
superior position so you are eye rolling
[1022]
you are name calling
[1025]
um there's a mockery mocking even
[1028]
physical mockery imitating them
[1030]
imitating their voice contempt is meant
[1033]
to just take the legs out from your
[1034]
partner make them feel pathetic
[1036]
ridiculous
[1038]
um and it can be abusive but
[1041]
um most people have engaged in contempt
[1044]
at some point in their relationship
[1045]
lower level would be sort of the eye
[1047]
rolling but that is the biggest
[1049]
predictor of a split if you allow
[1051]
yourself to think yeah that mockery or
[1054]
contempt just a little bit
[1056]
it's like this weird slippery slope sure
[1059]
is and the opposite is true
[1062]
where I just look at a person think wow
[1065]
isn't that the most like wonderful
[1067]
creature I've ever seen in my life like
[1069]
just think that and you notice the
[1070]
little details about who they are and so
[1072]
I just observe them the way you observe
[1074]
like a weird like peacock at a zoo or
[1076]
something like that attention is
[1077]
powerful isn't it yeah and it changes it
[1080]
change you start to notice beautiful
[1081]
things and then let
[1083]
uh the things that annoy you yes like
[1086]
just you're exactly right you're
[1088]
touching on some really important things
[1090]
so in relationships we actually know
[1093]
that wearing rose-colored glasses is
[1095]
important it's healthy we need it and
[1099]
it's a choice you're baking right so
[1101]
there is a saying that uh getting
[1105]
married is just choosing one person's
[1107]
faults over another and the reality is
[1110]
that we may become infatuated with
[1113]
somebody else as human beings love is an
[1115]
emotion attraction is emotion an emotion
[1117]
and as you go through life even if
[1118]
you're in a committed relationship you
[1120]
might see Beauty in another and that
[1123]
person who is novel might seem
[1125]
attractive to you but if you can
[1126]
remember that they too have a set of
[1130]
problems that you would be marrying it
[1133]
really helps you to
[1135]
see the beauty in your partner again and
[1138]
recognize all of their incredible
[1139]
strengths and all the ways we meld with
[1141]
the person and become our own family
[1144]
almost become I mean our lives
[1147]
intertwine and we grow those oak trees
[1149]
so she by the way this is a line I read
[1151]
somewhere that uh when you're wearing
[1154]
rose-colored glasses all the Red Flags
[1156]
looks just like Flags
[1159]
I think it's a good it's a good line uh
[1162]
so you so you think that humans are
[1165]
fundamentally all of us have
[1167]
fundamentally flawed or have flaws
[1169]
they're unique flaws and they're
[1171]
basically relationships is just the way
[1173]
to um
[1175]
they figure out how the two can fit
[1177]
together right and we're different so no
[1179]
matter what we're going to have
[1180]
differences we are raised differently
[1182]
than our partner we have different
[1184]
stories different experiences that
[1186]
shaped our value systems especially when
[1188]
it comes to the big ones like parenting
[1190]
love money
[1192]
um these principles that are based in
[1195]
our history
[1196]
we're going to have differences so are
[1199]
is this a set of differences you can
[1201]
accept from somebody and work with do
[1203]
the benefits and their strengths
[1206]
um do they make it worth it or is it are
[1209]
they deal breaker differences uh tricky
[1212]
question but uh in the in the couples
[1214]
you've worked with is there
[1216]
like the feminine and the masculine is
[1219]
there different dynamics that come into
[1221]
play like dominant submissive is there
[1223]
is it like a dance where it just changes
[1225]
from minute to minute is there is there
[1227]
dynamics that you observe that both
[1231]
limit and enable
[1233]
uh successful relationships yes so there
[1236]
are if we're talking about masculine
[1239]
feminine
[1240]
then now also art we could get into are
[1242]
we talking about actual gender
[1244]
identified gender or are we just talking
[1246]
about these traits because like I said
[1248]
ice Stonewall which is typically in
[1250]
couples something that is more
[1251]
associated with straight men
[1254]
um
[1255]
but that's my style of coping when I get
[1257]
overwhelmed uh that is not tied to any
[1261]
sort of success or non-success of a
[1263]
relationship but what we do know is that
[1266]
gay couples so lesbians and gay men tend
[1270]
to be gentler with one another when they
[1272]
are having conflict discussions I so
[1275]
that's actually been identified in the
[1277]
research and it's something I've
[1278]
witnessed and it's just fascinating so
[1280]
with my Straight couples I'll be going
[1283]
through one of these if we're processing
[1285]
a conflict that occurred I'll be going
[1287]
through the sheet and it's very very
[1288]
structured because you don't want
[1290]
couples doing more damage when they're
[1292]
there with you you want them practicing
[1293]
skills that protect them from criticism
[1297]
that protect them from contempt
[1299]
and when I'm working with a straight
[1301]
couple I am like a referee or sometimes
[1305]
I'll relate it to being like a ski coach
[1307]
and keeping people on a bunny Hill and
[1310]
you tell them you let them make like two
[1312]
turns and then you stop them and you
[1314]
meet up again because you don't want
[1315]
them to Veer off with straight couples
[1317]
you are doing very short turns before
[1319]
you need to kind of intervene and
[1321]
rescaffold
[1322]
I had a lesbian couple recently and they
[1325]
were so lovely with each other they
[1326]
skipped like seven steps to the advanced
[1329]
final portion where they were already
[1331]
coming up with Solutions and suggesting
[1333]
things that they might be able to do
[1335]
differently next time to make it better
[1336]
for their partner they were asking each
[1338]
other questions about how their partner
[1341]
felt with no agenda no attempt to sort
[1343]
of be like well do you think you're
[1345]
feeling that way because which straight
[1347]
couples do all the time you just see
[1350]
this humility and openness it's lovely
[1352]
yeah it's lovely but I wonder if uh
[1356]
maybe watching too many Hollywood films
[1358]
is some of the drama some of the tension
[1361]
is required for a passionate lifelong
[1364]
romance no it's not and that's great
[1367]
news
[1368]
so we actually know yes that The Closer
[1372]
You Feel to your partner so if I mean
[1375]
you've talked a lot about beauty and
[1378]
you can ignite that beauty that interest
[1381]
right so when you're falling in love
[1384]
it's usually that a person is sort of a
[1386]
mystery to you and you're uncovering
[1388]
these layers that you find really
[1389]
appealing
[1391]
there are continual layers that you can
[1394]
uncover with your partner over time I
[1396]
don't think we realize that I think we
[1397]
get complacent and we think we've had
[1399]
every conversation imaginable what what
[1401]
else are they going to do to surprise me
[1404]
but we don't know the questions to be
[1405]
asking
[1407]
one of my favorite questions
[1409]
um
[1410]
I like turning these conversations kind
[1412]
of into a quiz because I get bored
[1414]
easily so you rather than just asking an
[1417]
open-ended question
[1419]
um there's a way you can do this with
[1420]
your partner where it's sort of like the
[1422]
dating game like what is my as of yet
[1426]
fondest but unrealized life dream and
[1429]
see if your partner knows you might not
[1431]
even know they might know you better
[1433]
than you know yourself that in and of
[1435]
itself is a beautiful reminder
[1437]
of the relationship and how special it
[1440]
is but then also
[1443]
um
[1443]
when they say it or when you realize or
[1447]
have to think critically like what is my
[1449]
husband's as of yet unrealized but
[1451]
fondest life dream and then you can talk
[1453]
about it
[1455]
you just I don't know you just kind of
[1457]
transcend into this new area and you
[1460]
feel tight again you feel like you feel
[1462]
close well you really
[1464]
talk to each other like I I've recorded
[1467]
and without
[1470]
intending to publish uh podcasts like
[1473]
this with microphones with with friends
[1475]
with people close to me because it's
[1478]
literally that you get to ask questions
[1480]
like as if it's an interview right and
[1482]
we don't do that exactly it the way
[1484]
you're talking with me yeah sit down
[1486]
with your partner have that conversation
[1488]
like years later right show interest
[1491]
actually be curious see see what they
[1494]
surprise you with and actually when you
[1496]
learn is you don't know the answers to
[1498]
most these questions 100
[1500]
exactly like like what what's your
[1503]
favorite movie from the 80s you might
[1505]
not know the answer to that it's like
[1506]
those first date questions or whatever
[1508]
or what's your favorite movie this year
[1509]
and why and why yeah it's fascinating it
[1513]
is it's hard to do that because I think
[1515]
that you'll probably be offended at
[1517]
first how little the other person knows
[1518]
so I think you have to work through that
[1521]
you know I actually find that there's
[1524]
this rekindling because partners are
[1526]
shocked that their partner does know so
[1529]
much about them especially if they've
[1532]
been feeling dissatisfied or
[1533]
disconnected it's a reminder of all the
[1536]
good that's still there
[1538]
what uh I know we said some of those
[1541]
things but what's on the opposite side
[1543]
what's the key to a successful
[1544]
relationship what's like what are the
[1545]
things you see
[1546]
time and time again that do you
[1549]
designate that they're in a good path
[1550]
yeah there's a real Attunement honestly
[1554]
just it's
[1555]
um sort of an us against the world
[1556]
feeling nobody neither partner is going
[1559]
to talk [ __ ] on them the other uh
[1561]
there's a loyalty they handle each other
[1565]
in the relationship with care
[1567]
you can tell that they've worked some
[1569]
things I to me
[1571]
it usually indicates that these are some
[1573]
people who figured they've had to work
[1575]
some things out they know that this is
[1577]
delicate they know
[1580]
um you know that you're on thin ice you
[1582]
take a wrong step and you can be back in
[1584]
a tough place in your relationship or
[1586]
you treat it with care and it can be
[1588]
amazing
[1589]
so they're careful with one another they
[1591]
give each other compliments they are
[1594]
considerate so you'll see
[1597]
um you know he'll bring the car around
[1599]
for her because it's raining or
[1602]
um
[1602]
she'll bring him home some takeout you
[1605]
know she'll order for him to at the
[1606]
restaurant there's just they keep each
[1608]
other in each other's minds but that us
[1610]
against the world thing
[1612]
that definitely is there like 100 you've
[1615]
seen that right yeah you've seen it and
[1617]
you've seen it like um I like it when
[1619]
couples have been together for a long
[1621]
time and when one is talking the other
[1624]
one looks at them if you don't do that
[1626]
that's not a bad sound but it's a good
[1628]
sign when you do that yes because uh and
[1630]
I think it's actually a really good
[1632]
um exercise to do because I because I
[1636]
enjoy when I see in others so it's it's
[1638]
a
[1640]
it's a way to show that you don't take
[1643]
him for granted and then you still find
[1646]
them like this mysterious wonderful
[1648]
creature to observe like I think too
[1651]
often we have that with our parents we
[1653]
have that with um people close to us you
[1657]
think yeah I've heard what they're about
[1658]
to say I know I know you can complete
[1660]
that sentence take them for granted and
[1661]
then if you if you just look at them and
[1663]
say wow this is the most brilliant
[1664]
person
[1665]
I've ever seen in my life most I can't
[1668]
you know you just appreciate every war
[1672]
that comes out of them and look at them
[1673]
in that way you actually begin to
[1675]
believe it yeah and you actually begin
[1677]
to see the beauty of what they're saying
[1679]
you are exactly right it's a
[1681]
self-fulfilling prophecy and caring yeah
[1684]
yeah it's very caring so that's I mean
[1688]
that's I think the beauty of what the
[1690]
gottman research showed us taught us
[1693]
provided us is that we can do these
[1696]
things that become cyclic and just keep
[1698]
growing this relationship making it
[1700]
stronger more powerful more loving you
[1702]
would never want to cut it down well we
[1704]
you were talking about the sheet for
[1706]
conflict processing what are we talking
[1709]
about so like a couple will come and say
[1711]
like there was this conflict and you put
[1713]
on the table and then what does it mean
[1714]
to process it so in that gottman method
[1717]
of therapy there are all these different
[1719]
I mean hundreds of different
[1720]
interventions and based on what the
[1722]
issue is in that session you can decide
[1725]
the most appropriate intervention and so
[1728]
this is a specific intervention for if
[1730]
it is a conflict that occurred and there
[1733]
are different types of conflicts so this
[1734]
would be more like an incident it's not
[1737]
a Perpetual recurring problem
[1739]
um which has actually a different
[1741]
intervention where you kind of look at
[1743]
the underlying belief systems values and
[1746]
there's the goal is not to solve that
[1749]
problem the goal in that situation is to
[1751]
actually just get a better understanding
[1752]
of each other and your positions and
[1755]
just you stop seeing your partner as the
[1758]
adverse area and you start seeing them
[1760]
as a person who makes sense
[1762]
but if there's been a specific event a
[1765]
specific fight that's just sort of
[1767]
situational
[1769]
but it's left Bad Blood things were said
[1771]
or you didn't feel understood this
[1774]
intervention I was talking about is one
[1776]
that you would go through a series of
[1778]
steps where first you identify the
[1780]
emotions that you were feeling
[1782]
then you describe play by play your
[1786]
movie your perspective if your partner
[1788]
we're looking through your eyes this is
[1790]
what they heard saw thought then they
[1794]
saw this then they heard this so you're
[1797]
not saying yeah then you came in were
[1800]
yelling and acting crazy you're saying
[1801]
so then I saw you come in
[1803]
I heard you say and I thought to myself
[1807]
well great now everything's ruined right
[1810]
so you're showing them your movie then
[1812]
they have to summarize the movie for you
[1815]
and then vice versa
[1817]
and then there's this um Step where each
[1820]
person validates some part that they can
[1822]
understand like based on what you saw
[1825]
heard I can't actually understand how
[1827]
you felt one of those feelings that you
[1830]
said then my favorite part is you rewind
[1832]
sort of the movie
[1834]
from that day back through into
[1837]
childhood and you land on a time a
[1839]
memory when you felt a similar set of
[1841]
feelings
[1842]
and this is like the most beautiful part
[1844]
ever because let's say the feeling was I
[1847]
felt misunderstood I felt
[1850]
um misjudged uncared about unloved like
[1854]
you didn't even like me and I'll say
[1856]
when did you feel that way you know land
[1858]
on a time and they're like my whole
[1859]
childhood you know my parents were my
[1862]
mom was always accusing me of doing
[1863]
things I wasn't doing and it would set
[1865]
me up and my dad would come home he'd
[1866]
hear about it he would just believe her
[1868]
and then you have like a partner
[1870]
climbing up on the couch like give their
[1873]
partner a hug while they're sharing the
[1874]
story it's beautiful and it changes the
[1876]
way you interact in future disagreements
[1879]
so you have those moments yeah you can't
[1881]
unlearn now you know this about your
[1884]
partner you know what they're sensitive
[1885]
to
[1887]
yeah and again you kind of see the the
[1889]
Beauty and the flaws then right
[1892]
it all makes sense yeah it all kind of
[1895]
makes sense yeah so you maybe were in
[1896]
this dumpster dive in your head of how
[1898]
your partner sucks and all the things
[1900]
that are wrong with them and it's so
[1901]
hopeless and then you get this light
[1903]
shining through and you realize oh my
[1905]
god of course they would be sensitive to
[1907]
that and suddenly it's not about all the
[1910]
ways your partner is wrong and proving
[1912]
that they're wrong it's just how can I
[1914]
in the future make sure they do not feel
[1916]
this again I would never want this
[1918]
person I love to misunderstand me and
[1921]
feel so unloved what are you uh the
[1924]
early days of that what do you think
[1925]
about the whole dating
[1927]
modern dating process how do you find a
[1930]
partner
[1931]
that you can um
[1934]
stay with for the rest of your life so
[1936]
we are absolutely doing it wrong and um
[1939]
but there is a way you can do it and I
[1941]
am such a fan of the psychologist Thai
[1943]
tashiro I adore him he is brilliant he's
[1946]
lovely he's also very humble
[1948]
just a wonderful salt of the earth guy
[1951]
I'm gonna tell you a very true story
[1953]
here okay let's go I was in a bad
[1955]
relationship and I was
[1957]
um at a psychology conference with my
[1960]
partner at the time
[1962]
um we were both at this conference and
[1964]
we were sitting in a lecture hall uh
[1966]
there for Tai tashiro to do his talk
[1969]
that day on his phenomenal research on
[1972]
relationship satisfaction and dating
[1975]
um and I was sitting next to him and
[1977]
we'd been you know it was just always
[1979]
unpleasant on trips there were always
[1981]
fights we're sitting there and Thai
[1983]
tashiro starts talking about his
[1986]
research and how he found that most
[1988]
people are you know signing this
[1989]
agreement getting married and doing it
[1992]
based on the love endorphins and really
[1995]
only about 35 percent of anybody who's
[1997]
married is actually happy
[2000]
um and he said so then
[2003]
you know and exactly but here's what I
[2006]
love about Tai tashiro is he didn't stop
[2008]
there he wanted to know what those
[2010]
people who were happy
[2013]
um had in common
[2014]
and then same thing with the people who
[2016]
were unhappy he found a couple
[2017]
fascinating patterns
[2020]
so the couples who were happy
[2024]
tended to rate their Partners higher in
[2027]
three different traits and I love
[2029]
talking about this because if you are
[2032]
somebody who can follow instructions you
[2034]
can find this I mean very easily those
[2038]
three traits tend to be
[2039]
conscientiousness
[2042]
okay and I love the word
[2044]
conscientiousness because it's not just
[2046]
kindness kindness is a good way to think
[2048]
of it but
[2050]
you can be kind and kind of be a
[2052]
pushover and that's not attractive
[2053]
conscientiousness is smart attentive
[2057]
it's somebody who reads into a text
[2059]
message and thinks wow she was making
[2061]
herself very vulnerable there
[2063]
that's conscientiousness I like how you
[2065]
just do an accomplishment it's true it's
[2068]
a certain intelligence awareness and
[2070]
Attunement
[2072]
and then on top of that
[2073]
conscientiousness is motivated so you
[2076]
can't be on your ass all day and be
[2077]
conscientious because then you can't
[2080]
meet the needs that you anticipate about
[2082]
the person so conscientious is that guy
[2084]
who drives the car around in the
[2086]
rainstorm so his wife's hair doesn't get
[2087]
met it's my husband who checks my alarm
[2090]
for me every morning because he knows
[2091]
I'm terrible at time management and he
[2093]
makes sure that I set it a reasonable
[2095]
amount of time before my first meeting
[2097]
and not let 20 minutes I think I need
[2100]
and then he'll come wake me up with a
[2102]
cup of coffee that is Ultimate
[2104]
conscientiousness
[2105]
and it is true I mean I will tell you as
[2108]
somebody who's with a conscientious
[2109]
partner Your Love increases over time as
[2113]
you continue to feel grateful and
[2115]
admiring of that person
[2117]
the second one
[2119]
you want somebody who is low in a Big
[2122]
Five personality trait called
[2123]
neuroticism
[2125]
um you want somebody emotionally stable
[2127]
in a way now this doesn't mean you can't
[2129]
have somebody who doesn't get the blues
[2131]
or struggle with mental health issues
[2132]
trust me Ty is with somebody who you
[2134]
know I get I'm all over the place but
[2137]
you want somebody who kind of owns their
[2140]
[ __ ] and isn't going to just
[2144]
be emotionally unstable all over you
[2148]
know you want somebody who is generally
[2151]
happy and has some life satisfaction
[2154]
um having a partner who has serious not
[2157]
mental health issues but unmitigated
[2160]
emotional distress and instability is
[2164]
really hard on the partner and it's
[2166]
really hard on other family members
[2167]
including children if you have children
[2169]
so it's just a predictor of Happiness so
[2172]
there's a certain threshold of chaos
[2175]
that if you exceed it it's going to be
[2177]
destructive to a long-term relationship
[2179]
a perfect description chaos
[2182]
not the mystery chaos you love as your
[2185]
with your little Pro poet brain yeah I'm
[2187]
talking more like just somebody who
[2190]
there's just no peace there's no peace
[2193]
there's a problem with everything
[2194]
everything becomes more difficult going
[2197]
to a party is a chore a you don't know
[2199]
if they're gonna have a meltdown at the
[2201]
party or how many complaints about your
[2203]
friends or
[2205]
um everything is a problem so you want
[2208]
somebody who has just some resiliency I
[2211]
think is a good term for it some
[2213]
flexibility some spice is okay but not
[2215]
too much like right flexibility
[2216]
resiliency easy going yeah Okay the
[2220]
third is
[2222]
um really interesting I think so he
[2225]
found that
[2227]
having a partner with sort of moderate
[2229]
adventurousness not high adventurousness
[2232]
actually leads to greater greater
[2234]
satisfaction and the reason for that is
[2236]
high adventurousness equals novelty
[2239]
seeking shiny new things and so if
[2243]
you're in a monogamous relationship if
[2245]
that is what's important to you it's
[2247]
going to be very hard for a partner who
[2250]
is novelty seeking to be faithful
[2253]
um so that will cause a lot of pain but
[2255]
also
[2256]
um novelty seeking people tend to always
[2259]
have new projects new interesting things
[2261]
and so their attention is drawn away
[2263]
from the relationship and so you can
[2266]
just feel pretty neglected or
[2268]
unimportant
[2269]
by a little bit but you want a little
[2271]
bit of adventurousness so you want your
[2273]
person to be uh sort of self-motivated
[2276]
uh individuated have their own interests
[2278]
not completely dependent on you but also
[2280]
I mean low adventurousness is not a bad
[2282]
thing ultimately what you're getting
[2284]
with low to moderate adventurousness is
[2286]
that rock that feeling of stability that
[2288]
home and I made some references earlier
[2291]
like when you're 70 and you turn to your
[2293]
partner do you want them to be hot or
[2295]
you know for instance my dad has
[2297]
dementia right now and my husband turned
[2299]
to me on the plane we were all coming
[2300]
back from a trip and where we really saw
[2302]
how severe it's getting
[2304]
and he just turned to me he knew how
[2307]
much pain I was in even though I might
[2309]
wasn't showing it and he said I want you
[2311]
to know that if it comes to a point
[2313]
where we need to take care of your dad
[2314]
he needs to live with us you don't even
[2316]
need to ask it is I am 100 on board and
[2320]
will help and uh those are the things
[2323]
that matter that home feeling and
[2326]
technically that's a trait that's
[2327]
usually that's sort of a
[2329]
my husband caring so much about family
[2332]
and home and taking care of things that
[2334]
matter those are things that tend to be
[2336]
associated with that low to moderate
[2338]
adventurousness somebody who really
[2340]
cares about simple things and family I
[2343]
wonder if those things those those three
[2345]
things that something you can work on
[2347]
you know Consciousness you can probably
[2349]
you can
[2350]
proactively observe yourself
[2353]
and you know do it more regularly right
[2356]
neuroticism might be the hardest one
[2358]
probably I think so well I mean I
[2362]
I was pretty neurotic in my early 20s
[2364]
and when you wake up to it maybe you if
[2367]
you're self-aware about it maybe you'll
[2368]
be able to control it yeah I think
[2369]
self-awareness is key I think I think
[2372]
that's why I love therapy so much I
[2374]
think life is about growth and our
[2376]
potential for growth and to make our own
[2379]
lives better to make the lives of others
[2380]
better to serve others to heal all of us
[2383]
through this Collective healing and I
[2385]
think we're all capable of growth and
[2387]
the same with adventurousness you can
[2389]
I'm somebody that's pretty pretty low on
[2392]
adventure but I keep throwing myself out
[2395]
there just for the extra adventures and
[2397]
you can grow in that way yes and I am
[2399]
high in adventurousness and I was not
[2401]
really ready to settle down I was
[2403]
married earlier in my 20s but I would
[2406]
say that I am much more prepared to be
[2409]
in a committed long-term relationship
[2410]
now in my 40s than I was when I was
[2412]
younger but in that same way for me I
[2414]
like to connect myself to high adventure
[2417]
people so that it like brings me brings
[2419]
me out it's like uh they're a horse and
[2421]
I'm get to ride them and that's the
[2423]
thing so high adventure people are
[2425]
attractive they're interesting exciting
[2427]
but it can be a world of heartbreak
[2429]
because you know you're only under that
[2431]
Spotlight for a few minutes and then
[2433]
they're on to the next shiny thing yeah
[2434]
but heartbreak is part of love
[2436]
but that might be the drug thing that
[2438]
you were talking about speaking of
[2439]
adventurousness what about sex it's
[2442]
important sex playing a successful
[2444]
relationship well it okay so I'm saying
[2447]
it's important but I want to qualify
[2449]
that everybody has different levels of
[2452]
sex that are satisfying to them sex can
[2455]
definitely Bond you to your partner
[2456]
orgasms are amazing they de-stress us
[2459]
they're healthy they I mean you can have
[2461]
an orgasm and have a lower level of
[2465]
stress for 48 hours I think that's
[2467]
pretty incredible
[2469]
um
[2470]
if you have I mean just that kind of
[2473]
physical contact with your partner even
[2475]
a 20 second hug with your partner has
[2477]
similar benefits to an orgasm you're
[2479]
going to have a lower stress level
[2480]
you're going to feel immediately close
[2482]
to your partner you're going to get a
[2483]
rush of oxytocin which is going to make
[2486]
you feel happier more grounded
[2488]
throughout the day so that's a 20 second
[2490]
hug you extrapolate that to sex and
[2493]
things are going to be great
[2494]
so it's just physiological but I wonder
[2497]
there's probably metrics about how often
[2499]
you have sex how that correlates to
[2501]
successful relationships and so on well
[2503]
there are but it really has more to do
[2505]
it's sort of like remember I was talking
[2507]
about processing conflict and what
[2509]
matters is
[2510]
do people feel like it's been resolved
[2513]
do they feel like there's been a repair
[2514]
not necessarily how they go about doing
[2516]
it same with sex do does each partner
[2519]
feel sexually satisfied
[2522]
um so that could be once a month for one
[2524]
couple it could be five times a week for
[2526]
another couple it could be never for
[2529]
other couples truly
[2531]
um I mean so sex has a ton of benefits
[2533]
but its absence isn't necessarily
[2535]
detrimental I guess would be the
[2537]
qualifier depending on who you are and I
[2541]
know couples they use sex to as part of
[2543]
the conflict resolution process it's
[2545]
huge
[2549]
not just both all that's true
[2552]
um what do you think about infidelity
[2556]
um you know what's the cause of
[2559]
infidelity why do men and women cheat
[2561]
it's different for everybody but I I
[2564]
mean even earlier I was saying with
[2566]
adventurousness like if monogamy is
[2568]
something you're doing
[2569]
uh
[2571]
I I I've seen in my own practice I've
[2573]
seen the entire range of couples who are
[2576]
open about having sexual relationships
[2579]
with other people
[2580]
um and fine with it couples who want to
[2582]
be fine with it but find out they're not
[2585]
um uh couples who aren't just couples
[2587]
couples with multiple people you know
[2589]
multiple romantic relationships
[2592]
um I've had couples where Affairs are
[2594]
are tolerated and not talked about
[2598]
um they're not enjoyed but they are not
[2601]
the type of betrayal that will destroy
[2602]
the relationship sort of a understanding
[2605]
and keep it out of my face and then also
[2608]
we won't talk about it so in the fair
[2610]
that happened without getting permission
[2612]
first and as long as you don't talk
[2614]
about it it's not going to do a damage
[2616]
to the relationship right but we can't
[2618]
even talk about it like that right so
[2620]
nobody's going to admit that the fair is
[2623]
happening
[2625]
um there can't be any evidence of it
[2627]
it's sort of a just look the other way
[2629]
type of a situation but uh the partner
[2632]
who is not having the affair right they
[2635]
typically know
[2637]
um they certainly know that their
[2638]
partner is capable of that
[2640]
um they just kind of know but they don't
[2643]
want it in their face it would become a
[2645]
problem if it was in their face
[2647]
um
[2648]
as long as certain needs are met and
[2650]
everything else is okay at home it's
[2653]
just one of those things where don't ask
[2655]
don't tell but that that's an
[2656]
interesting point because I've I had a
[2658]
bunch of arguments with people I tend to
[2660]
hang out with especially in the tech
[2662]
sector uh people who really value like
[2666]
honesty and radical honesty and I keep
[2668]
arguing with people about this because
[2670]
to me
[2671]
it's not that simple okay that that's an
[2674]
example right there uh that Honesty can
[2677]
be really destructive like honesty is
[2680]
also a really complicated thing to get
[2682]
to the bottom of because what is really
[2684]
honest yes and you know like how do I
[2686]
look in this dress like
[2688]
there's a million ways yeah a lot it can
[2692]
be accessible in my mind if I'm in a bad
[2694]
place or my partner and I am like if
[2696]
Taya and I haven't been connected lately
[2698]
my honesty of what I actually think
[2701]
about him would be horrifically damaging
[2704]
and completely unfounded also and but
[2707]
and it can change on a dime but that's
[2709]
also not actual honesty to the big
[2712]
picture of how you feel about him I have
[2715]
interacted with a few folks who talk
[2717]
about their previous sexual partners for
[2718]
example on the numbers of sexual
[2721]
partners they've had and they feel like
[2723]
that's
[2724]
that that kind of honesty is actually
[2727]
empowering enriching to the relationship
[2729]
because all they've experienced sexual
[2732]
experiences you've had in the past make
[2734]
you a better sexual partner better
[2736]
partner in in the present and to me from
[2738]
the culture I've come from that's like
[2741]
anti-romantic yep yep like I you kind of
[2745]
throw the past kind of away right you
[2747]
don't really talk about it it's kind of
[2749]
there in this amorphous shape but it's
[2752]
almost as if you've met together for the
[2755]
first time and this is a beautiful new
[2758]
thing like your creatures that have
[2760]
woken up from a long Slumber right
[2763]
you're starting Anew it's starting in
[2766]
new right so and then you want some
[2767]
mystery there right I think the mystery
[2770]
and like you have to figure that out
[2771]
about each other so I'm not exactly sure
[2773]
that honesty is always for everyone and
[2776]
then also is honesty harmful or helpful
[2778]
at certain points too yeah I.E so you're
[2781]
talking about sort of like disclosing
[2783]
prior sexual history I thought you were
[2785]
going to go to so if you've had an
[2787]
affair do you hold could you keep that
[2790]
under your head oh yeah that's a really
[2792]
tough question or are you obligated to
[2794]
disclose it it's a really it is a very
[2797]
tough question very tough well what do
[2801]
you think is the I have my own personal
[2802]
beliefs I also then like I have my
[2805]
therapeutic beliefs I think frankly
[2808]
and this is just me as a human being not
[2810]
Shannon the psychologist
[2812]
um I believe that if you have [ __ ] up
[2814]
and and I again I'm coming from a
[2817]
framework right now of monogamy
[2819]
um if you are committed to somebody you
[2821]
love and you have [ __ ] up you don't
[2824]
get to shed your guilt onto them
[2827]
you need to carry that burden it's not
[2830]
necessarily I think it's simplistic and
[2832]
unsophisticated to be like but then
[2835]
you're being dishonest I think it's
[2838]
actually selfish to unload it on
[2840]
somebody else and give them the trauma
[2842]
of imagining what we do know about
[2844]
infidelity is that it can create
[2847]
an actual post-traumatic stress like
[2850]
experience for the Betrayed partner
[2852]
where they are having intrusive thoughts
[2854]
about it
[2856]
um those are unwanted thoughts and it's
[2857]
uncontrolled it comes in it multiple
[2859]
times a day they'll have depressed mood
[2861]
they'll have nightmares about it their
[2863]
entire sense of security safety
[2865]
self-esteem gets shattered because of
[2869]
your actions
[2870]
I think it's uh kind of yeah moralistic
[2875]
and naive to think well they deserve to
[2877]
know the truth if you actually know the
[2879]
harm that that sort of betrayal does
[2882]
um
[2883]
especially if you truly mean to stop it
[2887]
right so if it is if it was a one and
[2889]
done or if it happened and you've
[2892]
stopped it and you do not intend to do
[2894]
it again frankly I think you live with
[2896]
that burden you live with that
[2898]
discomfort thank you for saying that
[2900]
because I I totally agree but it's it's
[2902]
like logically
[2905]
it's doesn't quite make sense to give
[2908]
that advice but psychologically makes
[2910]
complete sense because you really are
[2912]
destroying another person's mind uh
[2914]
their faith in in love in relationships
[2917]
their their their trust everything and
[2920]
then you're imprisoning them to be stuck
[2923]
with you for months or years if you're
[2925]
trying to work through it through that
[2926]
torture so you should be carrying that
[2929]
burden and working through it I think
[2930]
why why do you say that that's your
[2932]
personal opinion University or
[2933]
therapeutic like what well I think
[2935]
everybody has different values right so
[2937]
I think that's a value-based decision
[2940]
because to me the hierarchy is kindness
[2942]
and do no like do no further harm yeah
[2946]
um over that's in that case over truth
[2950]
right
[2952]
um whereas other people you know my
[2955]
husband for instance he is like truth
[2957]
above all else you don't get to decide
[2959]
what I know or you know you don't get to
[2962]
decide whether or not I can handle that
[2963]
knowledge so he would even see my
[2966]
determination of you know that I should
[2969]
carry the burden sort of arrogant like
[2971]
well why don't you let your partner
[2972]
decide whether or not they you know why
[2975]
do you get to choose I don't know I I
[2977]
think there's value to both arguments I
[2979]
absolutely see this point is I
[2981]
absolutely see his point and his I think
[2983]
is like a very humble sort of option
[2985]
like
[2986]
you don't get to choose what's better
[2989]
you you just need to give them the
[2990]
information and they can choose but I
[2993]
think I don't know I think it's kinder
[2995]
to hold I think it's going to cause your
[2997]
conscience more discomfort to hold it
[3000]
and I think there's sort of a cleansing
[3002]
we do when we share that information I
[3004]
think in real life most people disclose
[3006]
it because they can't stand the secret
[3008]
anymore themselves that to me is a
[3011]
selfish act I have a unemployment
[3013]
applications and so on and just with
[3015]
friends would ask people what do you
[3018]
care more about truth or loyalty just to
[3021]
get to see how they think about those
[3023]
different questions
[3024]
and uh yeah the
[3027]
I was surprised how much variance there
[3030]
is on that and also conceptually I bet
[3033]
I conceptually I don't think we actually
[3035]
know where we stand until we're faced
[3037]
with a situation like that yeah I think
[3039]
people a lot of people especially when
[3041]
they're younger say especially if
[3043]
they're kind of intellectual they'll say
[3045]
truth Above All Else
[3048]
a second all right you're exactly right
[3049]
all right
[3053]
until you get to hear a truth that truly
[3056]
breaks you truly hurts you or causes
[3058]
suffering to you and then you realize or
[3061]
a truth you give to somebody else will
[3063]
cause them suffering right and they get
[3065]
to see that suffering destroy their life
[3068]
and maybe your relationship and so on
[3070]
and then you're like oh yeah like should
[3071]
I sit my dad down right now and be like
[3073]
Dad your dementia like you have dementia
[3075]
again today I'm going to tell you Dad
[3077]
you're not making sense no we're good
[3079]
it's not going to be discussed we're
[3081]
going to make them comfortable and I
[3082]
mean yeah I think it truth can be a
[3085]
little bit of a platitude Sometimes some
[3086]
of those complexities are all the things
[3088]
involved in in the challenges of what
[3091]
makes a relationship work right uh what
[3094]
do you think about open relationships in
[3096]
general
[3097]
my world view is such that I see the
[3099]
beauty and value in monogamous
[3101]
relationships just for me but I don't
[3103]
I'm also open to
[3105]
the possibility of what worked for other
[3107]
people have you done any kind of work
[3109]
with the people in open relationships as
[3112]
clients or research as clients oh yeah
[3113]
yeah
[3115]
is there some interesting differences in
[3116]
between uh open relationships and
[3119]
monogamous relationships you know I
[3121]
think that may have been actually what
[3123]
was behind my question about
[3125]
um the satisfaction with them being on
[3127]
the extremes my hypothesis essentially
[3129]
was is it because they if you are really
[3132]
all and you've worked out some of the
[3134]
Kinks I think I've seen
[3137]
um
[3138]
the couples who are trying it out like
[3141]
for the first time it tends to get a
[3143]
little Haywire there's some excitement
[3145]
in the beginning everybody's really
[3147]
excited about it
[3148]
um I think the philosophy makes sense to
[3150]
a lot of people uh the science of it
[3153]
makes sense to a lot of people and but
[3156]
we have been raised in a society that is
[3158]
pretty monogamous so there isn't a lot
[3161]
of scaffolding around it
[3163]
um and and there's a lot of inner
[3165]
conflict I think for people to go away
[3166]
from the values that they've been taught
[3168]
since they were kids
[3169]
um and so jealousy arises a lot and uh
[3173]
and also I it's very difficult to be I
[3176]
think as truthful and direct as you need
[3178]
to be which you're describing in these
[3181]
polyamorous situations where everybody
[3183]
is laid out on the table
[3186]
um so I think that's something that may
[3187]
be practiced in my own work with clients
[3190]
I've just noticed that um the the
[3194]
Partners who are
[3196]
happier in these situations who I've
[3198]
worked with they are more experienced at
[3201]
it
[3202]
yeah they seem to have it down
[3205]
you testified in the Johnny Depp Amber
[3208]
Heard trial uh based on your role as a
[3210]
clinical and forensic psychologist it
[3212]
was watched by I don't know how many
[3214]
people maybe tens maybe hundreds of
[3216]
millions of people what was that
[3217]
experience like thank God I didn't know
[3219]
that at the time
[3221]
um were you scared
[3222]
oh yeah given the size of the platform
[3225]
how many people are watching and not
[3227]
scared typically isn't the word when I
[3229]
testify I'm always
[3230]
um
[3231]
excited and a little trepidatious before
[3234]
I testify
[3236]
um because the stakes are so high for
[3237]
everybody's life in that room
[3240]
um this was different I I anxiety isn't
[3245]
usually my brand
[3246]
um and I just skipped anxiety that
[3249]
Maureen went straight to Terror and he
[3251]
was mad I was mad at the legal it was
[3253]
funny like I was having all these strong
[3255]
emotions I couldn't find my bobby pins I
[3257]
almost started crying because I couldn't
[3259]
find them uh I was pretty unhinged that
[3262]
morning and in a way that was really
[3264]
unfamiliar to me
[3266]
um and it was right when I cried because
[3268]
I couldn't find my bobby pins that I
[3270]
realized I needed to get a grip and that
[3273]
I was a professional and that my hair
[3274]
didn't matter even though it ended up
[3276]
mattering people noticed that it was
[3277]
crazy
[3279]
um but I got a grip and I went in and I
[3282]
just did my job
[3284]
so the terror in the end helped you
[3286]
focus and do your job well I think it
[3289]
does and it's a little scary though
[3291]
because I know what fear does
[3293]
cognitively and there is a sweet spot
[3295]
where you want some stress and then you
[3299]
can be really acutely focused and
[3301]
attuned but then if you go over this
[3304]
threshold you get sort of that frontal
[3307]
lobe shutdown where you're not thinking
[3309]
clearly and everybody knows that
[3310]
experience from taking a really
[3311]
stressful test at some point like in
[3313]
high school and then they're going over
[3315]
the answers with the teacher in class
[3316]
later and they're like how did I miss
[3318]
that question I know that they you're
[3320]
just in a different state that's when
[3322]
you have too much stress I think this
[3325]
day I actually was bordering on too much
[3327]
stress if not clearly in that threshold
[3329]
but um
[3331]
once you're sitting there for a little
[3333]
bit and you're asked the questions you
[3335]
can kind of go into a routine of just
[3337]
wanting to talk about your work
[3339]
so what is the work the job of a
[3343]
forensic psychologist in that context
[3346]
in the depth herd trial I was
[3350]
um
[3350]
serving as an expert witness based on a
[3354]
psychological evaluation of one of the
[3355]
parties so forensic psychologists can
[3358]
serve the court or in legal matters in a
[3362]
number of ways they can act as a
[3363]
confidential consultant for an attorney
[3365]
on a case
[3367]
or they can even assist with jury
[3370]
selection they might testify without
[3372]
doing an evaluation if they're just
[3373]
coming to testify about sort of a
[3376]
subject matter
[3377]
and then they wouldn't be answering
[3379]
specific questions to either the parties
[3381]
but just talking more hypothetically
[3383]
about an a field area in this case
[3386]
because I was ordered to conduct an
[3389]
evaluation
[3390]
I evaluated one of the parties and then
[3393]
you provide a report to the court with
[3396]
your findings and then you testify as to
[3400]
what your findings were but from my
[3402]
perspective just watching you seem to
[3404]
have held it together really well so
[3406]
what do you attribute that to so you
[3408]
said like it calmed down after you were
[3410]
able to ask the question so to me if I
[3413]
were just to put myself in your place
[3417]
it seems like the internet and the world
[3420]
would be very nitpicky about individual
[3422]
words you're speaking from a place
[3426]
of um a scientific rigor so you have to
[3430]
be very precise with the awarding
[3432]
precise I would feel like so much
[3434]
pressure about each single word I choose
[3437]
did you feel that pressure that you had
[3438]
to be extremely precise with the words
[3441]
always the pressure is so high going in
[3445]
to testifying I think that's where I
[3447]
feel the most pressure is preparing and
[3450]
literally the moment until I start
[3452]
having to answer and then I don't even
[3455]
have the luxury of thinking about myself
[3458]
because it is so important that that
[3461]
answer be
[3463]
clarified and understandable to the
[3466]
court that that becomes my focus and
[3468]
that's the godsend is that I can stop
[3471]
thinking about how scary it all is
[3473]
because I need to pay attention to
[3475]
explaining something
[3477]
so I if it's okay I would love to talk
[3479]
to you about the the personality
[3481]
assessment test because I think it's
[3483]
actually super fascinating uh but
[3484]
personality assessment inventory or the
[3486]
mmpi too you're probably referring to
[3488]
the mmpi too which is one I talked a lot
[3490]
about mmpi too yeah so maybe can you
[3493]
explain the mmpi to seems fascinating it
[3497]
is it has like its output the results
[3500]
has some basic skills as code types and
[3503]
just reading through the different
[3504]
complex it's the thing of beauty because
[3507]
the human mind is really complicated
[3509]
even you know depression schizophrenia
[3513]
uh bipolar disorder like all of these
[3516]
things are really complicated there's
[3518]
like we many of them we don't understand
[3520]
well this seems to be a huge amount of
[3523]
variance and yet you have to be able to
[3526]
stitch together a bunch of
[3527]
characteristics that give you intuition
[3529]
about
[3530]
the unique aspects of each person you
[3534]
want to be able to have tests that get
[3536]
you closer to identifying The Peculiar
[3539]
flaws or uh beauties of a particular
[3543]
mind so this seems to do a good job just
[3546]
reading through the different
[3546]
descriptions of the code testify that
[3549]
was the best description I don't know
[3552]
I'm being poetic I apologize beautiful
[3554]
description you have to be in part
[3556]
poetic about the human mind it's not
[3557]
it's not math it's it's psychology okay
[3560]
so what is the mmpi to like what what
[3563]
what are we talking about here like uh
[3566]
it's a questionnaire
[3568]
yes that's a great start so it it is a
[3572]
questionnaire uh yet 567 yes no
[3574]
questions
[3576]
I'm going to tell you what's most
[3577]
beautiful about this test so they used
[3579]
an empirical keying method to develop it
[3582]
what that means is that they didn't have
[3585]
a bunch of psychologists get together
[3587]
and say let's ask them
[3590]
um let's make sure that we identify
[3592]
people who have somatic complaints or
[3594]
physical complaints by asking them
[3596]
questions about like numbness in their
[3599]
hands nothing like that what they did
[3601]
instead was they threw you know like
[3603]
take a thousand questions at a group of
[3605]
people who they know at a certain mental
[3607]
illness and a group of people who didn't
[3608]
have that mental illness and then they
[3610]
looked for patterns in what the people
[3614]
with the mental illness
[3616]
endorsed as yes and no of those random
[3620]
questions so it would be for instance
[3622]
there's a bronze light fixture right
[3624]
there one of the questions out of the
[3626]
Thousand might be I like light fixtures
[3629]
that are bronze true or false and they
[3632]
looked for correlations in the way
[3634]
people would answer to these completely
[3636]
innocuous just boring questions so there
[3640]
was no real way that a test taker could
[3644]
foresee the point of answering
[3647]
and so because they can't foresee it's
[3650]
very difficult to cheat to get to a
[3652]
conclusion very difficult and not only
[3654]
that but you can imagine using that
[3656]
approach you can then look for patterns
[3660]
for almost any type of
[3663]
response style for any type of
[3665]
Personality trait any type of mental
[3667]
illness you just get a comparison group
[3669]
and then a group who's using that
[3671]
specific strategy or has that specific
[3674]
mental illness or has that personality
[3676]
trait
[3677]
um and you just look for patterns
[3680]
and there's a scale output of different
[3684]
kinds
[3685]
so types yep so we've got you've got
[3689]
validity scales and those are just
[3692]
fascinating and often one of the most
[3694]
useful parts of this test in forensic
[3697]
contexts because they show you how a
[3699]
person is approaching the test how
[3703]
they're answering questions about
[3704]
themselves so for instance you can see
[3706]
if they are tired you can see if they're
[3710]
kind of respect responding randomly you
[3712]
can see if they are in an
[3714]
unsophisticated manner trying to make
[3716]
themselves look perfect but not very
[3718]
nuanced you can see if they may be
[3721]
deceiving themselves and truly believe
[3723]
that they are perfect whereas others
[3726]
don't see it that way you can see if
[3728]
they're exaggerating you can see if
[3729]
they're exaggerating because they're
[3731]
truly
[3732]
um it's a cry for help they are in
[3734]
extreme distress but they feel as though
[3736]
they need to really punctuate it to get
[3738]
people to notice or you can see if
[3740]
they're exaggerating in a way that is
[3742]
um you know driven for a specific
[3745]
outcome or gain it's just fascinating
[3748]
and it's the most well-developed
[3750]
assessment we have for a person's
[3754]
approach to
[3756]
answering questions about themselves so
[3758]
it gives you the context of how honest
[3760]
they're being the state of the person is
[3762]
their answer to them yeah yeah their
[3764]
honesty their how forthcoming they're
[3766]
being and how accurate they're being and
[3768]
then the the result of the
[3769]
classification based on the test is are
[3772]
these code types right well so you have
[3774]
these clinical skills as well you have
[3776]
10 clinical skills that look for
[3778]
different
[3779]
um kind of primary Clinical Pathology
[3782]
issues this test doesn't tell you
[3784]
anything good about yourself at best it
[3787]
just tells you that you're not
[3788]
responding in a way that is uh dishonest
[3791]
and that you are uh kind not hugely
[3795]
problematic but there's you know it's
[3797]
not looking for strength so you have
[3798]
these 10 clinical scales that look for
[3800]
variations above the mean of the
[3803]
population
[3805]
um in certain areas anywhere from you
[3807]
know depressive symptoms manic symptoms
[3809]
physical complaints anxiety nervousness
[3813]
aggression social engagement whole scope
[3816]
of human experience and then there are
[3819]
much more nuanced scales from those so
[3822]
little sub scales and then the real
[3825]
power though of the mmpi2 is in as you
[3828]
said these code types and these code
[3830]
types are additional patterns that have
[3833]
been detected that really can be more
[3837]
defining of a personality so you look
[3839]
for Peaks there can be either two
[3841]
extreme Peaks or three typically that
[3844]
make a code type and those Peaks are
[3847]
higher scores on these personality
[3850]
traits and specific code types can give
[3852]
you a very nuanced picture of a person's
[3855]
General approach to life and their
[3857]
personal relationships just their
[3859]
personality so you can build on top of
[3862]
those code types and understanding yeah
[3864]
how that person is going to deal with
[3866]
different kinds of situations and then
[3867]
there's by the way a lot of code types
[3869]
there are a lot of questions pretty
[3871]
interesting it is
[3873]
I was I wanted to see which one I would
[3876]
I have given it to some people in my
[3878]
life it's just phenomenal how hard is it
[3880]
on your side of the table to give the
[3882]
test oh it's easy you just Proctor you
[3885]
just make sure that somebody there's no
[3886]
distraction that they're well rested
[3888]
they are sitting there and they can just
[3890]
take it in front of you so I guess the
[3892]
question is because the questions are
[3894]
well designed in that it's hard to mess
[3896]
with them you just give the it's very
[3898]
hard to beat it you just hand it to them
[3901]
and it's yes and no it's yes and no
[3904]
okay but I should also add to this that
[3909]
this test as much as I love it and um it
[3912]
is the most researched and widely used
[3913]
personality assessment in the world
[3916]
um
[3917]
it is not in and of itself definitive so
[3920]
you use it like you already have sort of
[3923]
a hypothesis and you use this for
[3925]
clarification okay
[3927]
um and it has a ton of value for showing
[3930]
somebody's response or their approach
[3933]
um how forthcoming they're being but
[3935]
other than that you really need to
[3937]
consider it as a piece of the puzzle you
[3939]
had said stitched together earlier and
[3940]
that was just one of those points you
[3942]
made that was perfect for describing
[3945]
this
[3946]
there's probably no one perfect test
[3948]
right for personality no
[3951]
I wonder especially with advancements of
[3955]
um AI
[3956]
there could be more
[3958]
more and more sophisticated ways of
[3961]
measuring of collecting data about your
[3963]
behavior absolutely there could be and
[3965]
being able to measure some kind of more
[3967]
productive kind of
[3968]
especially not in a forensic context but
[3970]
more in uh trying to figure out like how
[3974]
to improve your lifestyle improve your
[3975]
relationships all that kind of stuff so
[3978]
the the results of the test with um
[3981]
would then be heard if you can speak to
[3984]
the public stuff
[3988]
he said that the results of misheard's
[3991]
evaluation supported two diagnoses
[3993]
borderline personality disorder and
[3996]
hysterionic personality disorder
[3999]
can you speak to each one of those what
[4002]
are they what are the basic
[4003]
characteristics of borderline
[4005]
personality disorder sure well so right
[4009]
now are the DSM-5 which is sort of the
[4012]
Bible for mental disorders it's what we
[4014]
go to our diagnostic manual it
[4017]
classifies personality disorders
[4018]
according to clusters
[4020]
and cluster B is one that involves the
[4024]
emotionally erratic interpersonally
[4027]
erratic emotional disorders and those
[4030]
include histrionic personality disorder
[4032]
borderline personality disorder uh
[4035]
narcissistic personality disorder and
[4037]
anti-social personality disorder
[4040]
eventually there's been some research on
[4042]
this and a lot of support for us
[4045]
eventually moving into a more Spectrum
[4047]
type approach to considering personality
[4050]
disorders where you'd essentially be
[4053]
looking at dysfunction in different
[4055]
domains of somebody's functioning that
[4057]
has persisted over time and again the
[4060]
really important part is this it seems
[4062]
to be a stable trait part of their
[4065]
personality that person you know it's in
[4067]
their interpersonal relationships it's
[4069]
in how they handle their own life their
[4071]
own functioning their mood and it's not
[4074]
just situation based it seems to be all
[4076]
areas
[4077]
um I don't love
[4079]
the title histrionic personality
[4082]
disorder I think its history is um
[4085]
it's pretty controversial and there's
[4087]
some misogyny in it but that all being
[4091]
said as a servant to the court and
[4094]
somebody who is there to just provide
[4096]
the science as it exists today
[4098]
my job is to relay and in this specific
[4101]
case I was ordered to provide my
[4103]
diagnostic Impressions
[4105]
um a diagnosis and I don't get to decide
[4108]
which diagnosis uh whether I like a
[4110]
certain diagnosis or not ultimately if
[4113]
the criteria are met that diagnosis is
[4116]
given so as we have it right now with
[4119]
the current personality disorder
[4120]
categories histrionic personality
[4122]
disorder is probably the most
[4123]
controversial some people believe that
[4125]
it is narcissistic personality disorder
[4129]
light so sort of a less obvious less
[4134]
malicious version of narcissistic
[4137]
personality disorder
[4139]
and I think that will probably get
[4142]
sussed out if we do move to a more
[4144]
Spectrum based approach because then you
[4145]
would be describing sort of a
[4147]
personality disorder and then you would
[4148]
add the traits to it so you know with
[4151]
issues and interpersonal functioning and
[4154]
and Etc so you could be a little bit
[4155]
more
[4156]
specific rather than have to just put
[4159]
somebody in a category so that's where
[4161]
things are moving you're saying that's
[4163]
where things are moving from a cluster's
[4165]
based view of NPD anti-social
[4167]
personality disorder to more of a
[4170]
spectrum with personality dysfunction
[4172]
then you you list the traits that are
[4174]
there and I think that'll be more
[4176]
accurate um especially there's so much
[4178]
overlap between these personality
[4180]
disorders right now especially cluster B
[4182]
it is not uncommon for people to have
[4184]
two or three personality disorders to
[4187]
meet criteria for two or three at the
[4189]
same time so speaking about borderline
[4192]
personality disorder and histrionic
[4194]
personality disorder
[4196]
borderline personality disorder can best
[4198]
be thought of as a disorder of
[4201]
instability and impulsiveness emotional
[4204]
instability instability in a person's
[4207]
self-identity sense of self instability
[4210]
in a person's relationships and then
[4213]
underlying all of this is an intense
[4215]
fear of Abandonment histrionic
[4218]
personality just order
[4219]
is more of a disorder of emotionality
[4224]
Dramatics and attention seeking
[4227]
this you know histrionic disorder
[4229]
typically is known for The Dramatics and
[4234]
people who are observing or interacting
[4236]
with somebody with this disorder may
[4237]
even feel themselves almost kind of
[4239]
wanting to turn away there's a sense of
[4242]
play acting as the person is speaking or
[4244]
engaging with you
[4246]
um
[4246]
something just feels a little bit
[4248]
disingenuous
[4250]
and a lot of attention seeking similar
[4252]
to borderline personality disorder you
[4254]
might see with histrionic personality
[4256]
disorder attempts to manipulate however
[4259]
the motivation with histrionic
[4260]
personality disorder is that attention
[4262]
whereas with borderline personality
[4264]
disorder the underlying motivation for
[4266]
almost everything is to avoid
[4267]
abandonment so you'll see frantic
[4270]
attempts to avoid abandonment frantic
[4273]
attempts to keep people close and those
[4276]
frantic attempts can be really harmful
[4278]
to the person and to others
[4280]
to the person themselves
[4283]
so the fear of Abandonment can
[4286]
result in the very thing you're afraid
[4288]
of right
[4290]
and and I there has been some research
[4292]
also to suggest that there that
[4295]
borderline personality disorder has
[4297]
different types as well
[4299]
um
[4300]
and I think this is really important
[4303]
because in my own work I have
[4305]
encountered many people with borderline
[4306]
personality disorder in my own life
[4308]
right
[4309]
um
[4310]
and there are different types right I
[4313]
I'm thinking specifically of a girl I
[4316]
really love who I've worked with for
[4317]
years who is so self-aware about this
[4320]
and endearing and uh she she owns her
[4325]
[ __ ] I can forgive almost anything if
[4328]
somebody just owns their [ __ ]
[4331]
um she is she might lose her temper she
[4334]
might lash out she can be erratic but
[4338]
she will come back and apologize own it
[4341]
and accept full responsibility and not
[4343]
only that but identify it and make
[4346]
changes
[4347]
she doesn't want to be harmful I adore
[4350]
that about her I think it's an admirable
[4352]
quality more of us could have
[4355]
um that's very different than
[4357]
when you think about it there are nine
[4359]
different symptoms and you only need
[4361]
five to meet criteria so depending on
[4363]
which symptoms you have you might be far
[4366]
more calculated conniving manipulative
[4370]
or you may just be more of the impulsive
[4372]
kind of messy emotionally erratic type
[4374]
and so there's some new research also
[4376]
coming out that's even suggested that
[4379]
among women
[4380]
those that score higher in some of these
[4383]
more calculated traits of the disorder
[4385]
may actually be it may be a certain
[4389]
presentation of female psychopathy
[4392]
yeah are are some of these personality
[4395]
disorders again probably impossible
[4397]
question to answer but
[4399]
how much of it is nature how much of it
[4401]
is nurture or how much of it is in the
[4405]
genetics and you just can't do much with
[4407]
uh maybe another question a different
[4410]
way to ask that is how much can you help
[4412]
that how how much can you become better
[4416]
that is a tough question so there's been
[4418]
a ton of change in the way we've thought
[4421]
about the etiology of these personality
[4424]
disorders specific to borderline
[4426]
personality disorder I think in general
[4429]
the view is that most people believe
[4432]
that it was associated with neglect or
[4435]
trauma and childhood
[4437]
while there is a correlation there
[4439]
there's a correlation between that and
[4441]
many mental health issues not just
[4443]
borderline personality disorder we also
[4446]
there is evidence to support a genetic
[4448]
basis for this personality disorder and
[4451]
there are people who have borderline
[4452]
personality disorders that report no
[4455]
childhood trauma or difficulty
[4458]
um and I've and I have seen I you know
[4461]
sometimes things just happen so
[4464]
I think it's a mix I think we need to
[4466]
think of it as biopsychosocial which is
[4468]
generally the answer to most things when
[4470]
you're talking about how a mental health
[4472]
issue comes to be
[4474]
um I certainly think that in most cases
[4479]
and here's just me speaking personally
[4481]
again I think in my own work in most
[4484]
cases what I see is that somebody may
[4487]
have some sort of predisposition then
[4490]
they go through certain life events and
[4492]
learn patterns of Behaving that may
[4495]
serve them well as a child in a
[4497]
dysfunctional situation but end up being
[4499]
very problematic later on or they just
[4502]
have enough hardship that that Gene
[4504]
whatever it was lying dormant that
[4506]
little borderline personality disorder
[4508]
Gene expresses itself and you'll see
[4510]
that with things like schizophrenia
[4511]
depression anxiety disorders there tend
[4515]
to be certain ages where you'll just see
[4516]
that expression happen
[4520]
all right for the record it got cold in
[4522]
here so we upgraded with a blanket
[4527]
you look cozy uh just as a question for
[4531]
me just observing the trial it was
[4534]
interesting
[4536]
that first of all is a really
[4538]
raw and honest exploration of
[4542]
intimate relationship between two people
[4544]
oh yeah it was interesting to watch I
[4546]
suppose I haven't watched that kind of
[4548]
thing
[4549]
it made me think about what makes for a
[4551]
good relationship
[4553]
all the all the many things we've
[4555]
already talked about in this
[4555]
conversation
[4557]
it was useful for that but also there
[4560]
was raw recordings of two humans
[4563]
interaction what do you think about that
[4566]
that there's recordings it's kind of
[4568]
interesting the act of recording your
[4570]
partner yeah and not not the ethics of
[4573]
that or so on but the fact that you have
[4575]
this data made me wonder like if I
[4577]
recorded myself how would I sound like
[4580]
when you record yourself no but here
[4582]
with microphones but when you're in
[4583]
private yeah you wonder
[4587]
like I had a a bit of a fight with a
[4591]
friend uh last week
[4594]
and I wondered which one of us was the
[4597]
[ __ ] I would love to hear the
[4599]
recording because we were a little bit I
[4601]
think we're a little bit rude to each
[4603]
other and I wonder how it went wrong I
[4606]
love that you asked yourself that
[4607]
question that's so useful we made up the
[4609]
next day and we I think both agreed to
[4611]
not ever talk about it but I want this
[4614]
to bury it deep yeah you know I record
[4617]
my couple sessions and one of the
[4620]
primary purposes of that is so that
[4622]
after if they start to get nasty with
[4625]
each other in the session I can stop it
[4628]
and I can say what was that right and
[4631]
most of the time that what you're
[4633]
describing is so useful because we don't
[4635]
see ourselves we have no idea that we
[4638]
just came off as critical we think we're
[4640]
being completely reasonable and
[4642]
thoughtful you know whenever somebody's
[4644]
sort of retelling an argument they got
[4646]
and they said and then you know I was
[4648]
just caring and just asked I mean why is
[4652]
there a reason you did you know
[4653]
something like that if they can actually
[4655]
see themselves they realize no their jaw
[4657]
was clenched their voice was raised they
[4659]
actually called a name sometimes they're
[4662]
shocked
[4663]
uh so just a quick just to linger on it
[4666]
the you labeled
[4669]
Amber Heard as a three six code Type
[4672]
going back to our discussion which can
[4674]
mean that quote she's heavily concerned
[4676]
with image prone to treating others with
[4678]
cruelty unable to admit responsibility
[4680]
for wrongdoing and prone to
[4683]
externalizing blame and then I also went
[4686]
into the the mmpi2 list three six
[4691]
includes anxiety tension rigidity fear
[4694]
of criticism
[4696]
suppress hostility merging and passive
[4698]
or episodic aggression
[4701]
suspiciousness egocentricity what else
[4704]
projection
[4705]
what can you say about that code that is
[4708]
not captured in the different
[4709]
personality disorders
[4712]
um what are we supposed to do that from
[4713]
a forensic psychology perspective and
[4715]
what what what are we supposed to do
[4717]
that in general forget the 3-6 in
[4719]
general these kinds of code types in
[4721]
that context in the context of a trial
[4723]
if I'm understanding you correctly it's
[4725]
sort of what's the point of these code
[4727]
types yeah
[4728]
um thank you for asking the question
[4729]
better but
[4731]
I don't know what I'm doing I just I
[4734]
just actually honestly really find mmpi
[4737]
too fast I love that you do yeah I love
[4739]
that you get it because I just to me
[4742]
it's such a uh it's almost unbelievable
[4745]
that humans created it
[4747]
um but I think that goes back to that
[4748]
empirical key method of creating
[4750]
something that enabled it to be as
[4753]
robust as it is and something that is
[4756]
very difficult to beat if not impossible
[4759]
um but the code types really so it
[4763]
depends on in any forensic case what
[4766]
really matters is the legal psycho legal
[4769]
questions so what is the legal question
[4771]
and then what is the psychologist's
[4774]
responsibility in assisting with
[4775]
whatever question they're being asked
[4777]
and there are some questions we can't
[4778]
answer some that we can
[4780]
um you don't always need to provide a
[4782]
diagnosis when you're asked to provide a
[4785]
report it depends on the jurisdiction it
[4787]
depends on the statute some
[4788]
jurisdictions actually require a
[4790]
diagnosis in this case I was asked to
[4792]
provide a diagnosis so when I'm
[4794]
considering a diagnosis you're
[4797]
integrating multiple different sources
[4799]
of information you're integrating and
[4801]
examining self-report you are adding
[4805]
collateral data usually I wasn't able to
[4808]
obtain collateral interviews in this
[4810]
case and that was the decision of the
[4813]
Court they said no collateral interviews
[4815]
but typically that would be something
[4818]
that you would add you're looking at
[4820]
records ideally from birth up until the
[4822]
day that the alleged injury occurred and
[4826]
I'm speaking now specifically to a
[4828]
personal injury evaluation or something
[4830]
where somebody is claiming that they
[4831]
were harmed psychologically
[4834]
um but you want as many records as
[4835]
possible to show how a person functioned
[4837]
before that event occurred and how they
[4840]
functioned after and you want it to show
[4843]
Financial functioning physical
[4844]
functioning academic functioning
[4846]
basically where is there evidence that
[4849]
something in their life changed
[4851]
um where is there evidence that harm
[4853]
occurred other than from what they're
[4855]
telling you and uh in addition to all of
[4859]
those records that you're reviewing in
[4861]
addition to their self-report then
[4863]
you're also going to give some of these
[4865]
tests like the mmpi so the code types
[4868]
are really that that strength of the
[4871]
mmpi2 it gives you really nuanced
[4873]
information about a person's personality
[4875]
now again you're not going to use the
[4877]
mmpi2 or any other test by itself to
[4881]
diagnose someone or you know decide that
[4884]
the person is telling the truth not
[4885]
telling the truth it is just another
[4887]
piece of data and when it's working the
[4891]
way it's supposed to It lines up really
[4893]
nicely with all of the other data you're
[4896]
getting including what you've observed
[4898]
from the person during your interview
[4899]
with them the information they're giving
[4901]
you or inconsistencies with information
[4903]
they're giving you the consistency or
[4906]
inconsistency of their self-report from
[4908]
the records what the records themselves
[4911]
say etc etc so it's adding it's helping
[4914]
you clarify and clarify and clarify the
[4916]
picture yeah just dialing it down more
[4918]
and more you're just making sure that it
[4920]
is as accurate as possible
[4922]
okay so given how huge this trial was
[4925]
given how eloquent you were you were I
[4928]
know you don't think of it that way but
[4930]
from a public perspective you were like
[4932]
the star
[4934]
because of how well you've been it's I
[4936]
mean you know uh I'm pretty sure
[4938]
Camille's the star Camille is also
[4941]
incredible I've got a chance to interact
[4942]
with her she's somebody that uh
[4946]
really inspires me by how good she is at
[4949]
her job how much she loves her job and
[4951]
how much the fame the money whatever has
[4954]
not affected the basic core Integrity of
[4957]
who she is as a human being so she's
[4961]
also uh she's also incredible okay uh
[4964]
how what's the what's the takeaway for
[4966]
you personally from The Trial uh how's
[4968]
it made you a better person how is it
[4971]
changing changed or solidified who you
[4974]
are as a psychologist as a forensic
[4978]
psychologist clinical psychologist and
[4979]
so on
[4981]
wow uh I mean a lot happened in my life
[4985]
around that trial leading up to the
[4987]
trial after the trial
[4989]
um
[4990]
so let's tackle forensic psychologists
[4993]
first sure okay so in terms of forensic
[4996]
psychology
[4997]
um I am grateful to that trial for
[5000]
really strengthening my abilities
[5002]
um these Stakes were so high that I took
[5006]
you know I was retained about two years
[5009]
prior to the trial so I really delved
[5013]
deep into the academic side of forensic
[5016]
psychology and making sure that
[5019]
um I was adhering as closely as possible
[5022]
to standard practices best practice
[5024]
recommendations for this specific type
[5026]
of an examination it was intellectually
[5030]
awesome and challenging I feel like my
[5032]
brain was on fire for a full year
[5034]
leading up to the trial and that can be
[5037]
really really fun it was just
[5039]
challenging but I am really proud of the
[5041]
work I did I think the stakes were
[5043]
really high it's serious work it's
[5046]
important that it's done well and
[5049]
accurately and
[5051]
I felt really good about it so I have
[5053]
some of those lessons carried through to
[5054]
your practice now to both research and
[5057]
uh some of the things you're doing in
[5060]
terms of helping couples
[5061]
uh no I mean I just
[5064]
you know my practice hasn't changed that
[5066]
much uh this was more uh just something
[5071]
that was more it demanded so much more
[5073]
of my time than my typical forensic work
[5075]
does and personal injury cases are in
[5078]
cases where there is an allegation of
[5080]
trauma or psychological harm tend to be
[5082]
super labor intensive this given um the
[5086]
magnitude and how long it had been going
[5088]
on in the back and forth required a ton
[5090]
of work before the trial as well so it
[5093]
pulled me away from the practice I think
[5094]
it's been nice to go back a bit if okay
[5098]
so now personally
[5100]
um I've learned some things I've learned
[5102]
that I need to slow down a little bit
[5105]
so this took a lot from you it took a
[5108]
lot but it was really the culmination I
[5110]
feel like there are these hoops we jump
[5112]
through again and again you know
[5114]
academic challenges that we continue to
[5118]
meet and then there's a next one and a
[5120]
next one and a next one and in the
[5122]
beginning like when you're getting into
[5124]
college or applying to grad schools you
[5127]
don't really realize this is going to be
[5129]
a never-ending thing especially if I
[5131]
continue with research or forensic work
[5133]
I love it because it is so academic you
[5135]
know you're writing these 75-page
[5137]
reports and with citations and
[5141]
um you have to be accurate it feels like
[5143]
I'm doing giant board exams again and
[5147]
again and again
[5149]
um it never ends but that feeling I
[5153]
think you and I were talking about how
[5154]
it's fun to doubt yourself because it
[5156]
pushes you to do better work
[5159]
um but so if you keep having high stakes
[5161]
you're going to work all the time work
[5164]
yourself in the ground constantly be
[5166]
thinking I'm about oh this question I'm
[5168]
not sure if I fully know the answer and
[5170]
all the research behind that so I should
[5172]
go there
[5173]
and again super fun
[5176]
but
[5177]
I don't just do forensic psychology all
[5180]
day I also have own a clinic I provide
[5185]
therapy I've been providing therapy for
[5187]
15 years so what happens is you have
[5190]
clients who maybe you've stopped seeing
[5192]
but when they have a crisis in their
[5194]
lives they reach out to you again even
[5195]
if it's seven years later so you've
[5198]
accumulated hundreds of clients who at
[5201]
any given time are going to reach out
[5203]
when they're in crisis whether or not
[5205]
you're working on a federal case or in
[5208]
Virginia for this and
[5210]
that is never going to be something easy
[5213]
to Grapple with because I feel that I am
[5216]
letting somebody down I know I am
[5218]
because these are people I genuinely
[5220]
care about and they care about me and
[5221]
they trust me
[5222]
and I want to be able to be there for
[5225]
them I know that it's disappointing if I
[5227]
can't be and it's also very difficult
[5230]
to separate out the Professional Therapy
[5233]
relationship from loving someone who
[5236]
you've seen through some of the most
[5238]
difficult parts of their lives and I can
[5241]
explain that to people all day long but
[5243]
it doesn't necessarily mean that it's
[5245]
going to be easy for someone to accept
[5247]
when I can't talk to them
[5249]
and they just found out you know their
[5250]
husband was leading a double life or you
[5253]
know their sister just died and I can't
[5255]
even get on a call because I'm getting
[5257]
maybe 15 messages like that a day
[5260]
and have to testify and have to run my
[5264]
practice
[5266]
um so I think that was why I need to
[5269]
slow down this case I was doing all of
[5271]
that
[5273]
um
[5273]
and then like the academic load or the
[5276]
work involved was just tremendous
[5279]
um and some stuff happened like my dad
[5281]
he started having his cognitive decline
[5283]
I got a medical diagnosis that is stress
[5286]
induced
[5287]
um I really thought I was getting away
[5289]
with it I I really believed that people
[5291]
who talk like a lot about self-care were
[5293]
kind of full of [ __ ] and just didn't
[5296]
know how to push themselves I still
[5298]
believe in pushing ourselves
[5300]
but I think I
[5302]
I
[5303]
kind of traversed into an area and
[5305]
without realizing it where I was no
[5307]
longer pushing myself to challenge
[5309]
myself or see what I was capable of I
[5311]
was almost pushing myself like as a
[5314]
necessity because I didn't know what
[5316]
else to do anymore
[5317]
just an obligation
[5319]
um it wasn't even I wasn't pushing
[5322]
myself to do
[5323]
the debt herd case reminded me of that
[5325]
feeling of pushing myself to do
[5327]
something I wasn't sure I was capable of
[5328]
and overcoming that challenge that was
[5331]
rewarding but when you're piling that on
[5334]
with like running a business and all
[5335]
these other things and trying to be
[5337]
perfect at all of them
[5339]
um that just starts to become like a
[5341]
feeling of necessity and it's not
[5343]
healthy
[5344]
that said you somehow managed to hold it
[5347]
all together to put forward a mask for
[5350]
performance and like you said still take
[5352]
care of all these clients because you're
[5355]
the most important person in their lives
[5356]
for many of them
[5359]
um is there is there a secret to that
[5361]
was there any hacks
[5363]
is there uh I don't get no and honestly
[5368]
I it's not 100 it's not how I
[5372]
it's a work in progress right I I don't
[5375]
have an answer for
[5377]
I wouldn't want my life to be any other
[5379]
way I you know I wouldn't have had the
[5382]
opportunity to work on this case if I
[5384]
hadn't established my practice and had
[5386]
Outreach and um
[5389]
so I I can't figure out like which piece
[5392]
you take it out without it all crumbling
[5393]
yeah but I would love to have a little
[5395]
more down time so it all kind of works
[5397]
together and there's
[5399]
passion is the fuel that
[5401]
uh that's behind all of it probably
[5403]
that's probably the reason you haven't
[5405]
lost your mind quite yet maybe yeah
[5408]
maybe unless I mean it depends who you
[5411]
ask what about the stress of just being
[5415]
in the public eye has that been
[5417]
difficult for you
[5418]
that's a lovely question thank you for
[5420]
asking it because I'm
[5422]
it is nice to talk to you about this
[5424]
because I feel like you probably
[5425]
understand it a little bit
[5428]
um that was something I was absolutely
[5430]
unprepared for uh like I said I had no
[5433]
idea how many people were watching when
[5434]
I testified I
[5437]
I had no idea and I got off the stand I
[5441]
kind of staggered to the back room and
[5444]
truly thought about lying down on the
[5446]
floor because I was so exhausted and uh
[5450]
you know I'd been up studying on my
[5452]
stuff terrified that I was gonna forget
[5454]
some statistic about the mmpi too it's
[5457]
gonna be so great it's great for me it's
[5459]
gonna be great for people to hear this
[5460]
that you're human you're too flaws
[5465]
that you're that's extremely stressful
[5467]
for many many hours I wondered how you
[5469]
could sit there for so many hours and
[5471]
stay so focused and listen so well it's
[5474]
so difficult well I mean I could talk
[5475]
about that too at the moment I came to
[5478]
almost like came back to my body and
[5479]
realized where I was and just wanted it
[5481]
to stop and felt like I was burning
[5483]
alive I just was thinking I don't want
[5485]
to do this anymore I don't want to do
[5487]
this anymore is this going to stop and
[5489]
then another question came and I just
[5490]
had to get back to it uh but uh so after
[5494]
I testified the first time I went in
[5496]
that back room I I might have laid down
[5498]
on the ground it's kind of a blur I mean
[5500]
I might have I do remember that Wayne
[5502]
Dennison uh one of the senior managing
[5505]
Partners at Brown redneck who is a
[5506]
phenomenal guy and absolutely brilliant
[5509]
I will be indebted in for life because
[5511]
um I trusted him I trusted him and that
[5514]
made all the difference in probably how
[5516]
I testified but he came in the back and
[5518]
he was looking at his phone and he said
[5520]
you're on the cover of time something on
[5522]
you know like Apple news
[5524]
and I thought I mean I really I thought
[5527]
he was messing with me
[5529]
um I thought it was it was his joke way
[5530]
of saying like I did great
[5532]
you've worked with uh veterans
[5536]
um what is PTSD in that context what
[5540]
what's the landscape of psychological
[5542]
sufferings that
[5543]
veteran soldiers go through
[5551]
um
[5552]
well if we're talking about combat
[5554]
exposure
[5555]
you're seeing
[5558]
things you're not meant to see you're
[5560]
seeing the worst of humanity people
[5562]
harming other people it's not natural
[5564]
for
[5566]
um others to intend to harm us it's not
[5569]
natural for us to harm others and
[5573]
this dehumanization can occur that's so
[5576]
troubling and disturbing that people
[5577]
have a hard time living with it later or
[5580]
they just feel this ongoing anger
[5584]
um
[5586]
yeah it's it depends it depends on the
[5588]
trauma they're exposed to it depends on
[5590]
you know whether their Convoy was
[5593]
ambushed by weapons that were purchased
[5596]
from money that was given to this
[5598]
Village from the US government
[5600]
um it depends on whether
[5603]
um
[5604]
they did something that they have a hard
[5607]
time reconciling outside of War now that
[5609]
they're back home in Civilization
[5612]
um depends on whether they lost a lot of
[5615]
their comrades and feel that guilt of
[5617]
being a Survivor and again not everybody
[5620]
develops PTSD it really it's a mental
[5623]
disorder it's serious we talk so much
[5626]
about trauma and PTSD gets thrown around
[5629]
lightly when actually it's very
[5631]
difficult to meet the full criteria for
[5633]
that diagnosis and many people
[5636]
experience severe trauma in their lives
[5638]
and only about 14 percent are likely to
[5642]
actually develop PTSD it's an exception
[5644]
not the norm
[5645]
traumatic stress is absolutely normal
[5648]
after something traumatic happens you'll
[5651]
likely have nightmares you'll likely
[5652]
have anxiety you'll feel depressed
[5655]
because you're a human being and
[5656]
something abnormal happened but PTSD is
[5659]
a longer standing condition that is
[5665]
significantly impairing in a person's
[5668]
life and I think we've lost that in some
[5670]
of the sort of narrative in society it
[5672]
just everybody has PTSD but no you can
[5676]
have traumatic stress you can be
[5677]
distressed you can be affected by trauma
[5679]
and not have that particular diagnosis
[5681]
PTSD
[5683]
significantly impairs people's lives
[5687]
how do veterans how do soldiers who
[5688]
suffer from PTSD or close to that kind
[5691]
of diagnosis begin to heal
[5694]
what's the path for healing well I will
[5697]
hand it to the military because I think
[5699]
in terms of working with their active
[5701]
duty service members they really invest
[5703]
heavily in mental health the U.S
[5707]
Department of Defense was one of the
[5708]
first to bring animal assisted therapy
[5712]
into any type of treatment in the early
[5714]
1900s with uh bringing you know farming
[5717]
into certain hospitals and letting
[5719]
veterans help with the farms and brush
[5722]
the horses and which is so Advanced
[5725]
because now we have all this research on
[5727]
animal assisted therapy and
[5730]
um how beneficial it is and just looking
[5732]
in the eyes of a dog can increase your
[5733]
pain threshold and speed healing after a
[5736]
cardiac arrest help people with dementia
[5739]
and ambulate more freely it's incredible
[5741]
stuff simple
[5742]
uh and the military was ahead of the
[5744]
game on that and I don't think that's
[5746]
changed I did my training at a military
[5748]
Hospital in Hawaii tripler Army Medical
[5751]
Center it was phenomenal training and
[5755]
you know our psych Department there was
[5757]
so much interesting research going on we
[5760]
had and it was so integrated so you
[5764]
might not imagine that the military
[5766]
would be doing this but we had an
[5768]
acupuncture Department we had a
[5770]
chiropractic Department we had a yoga
[5773]
section we were doing yoga sessions
[5775]
there
[5776]
um I mean they anything that has
[5779]
evidence to support its efficacy was
[5782]
being utilized and I think that's pretty
[5785]
cool about our government they have a
[5787]
lot of funding so I'm glad they're using
[5788]
it on that the real challenge I think
[5791]
comes with the large-scale need of the
[5795]
veteran population
[5797]
um and they slipped through the cracks I
[5800]
know that the dod had a campaign going
[5802]
where they were doing outreached anybody
[5803]
who served for instance in the Vietnam
[5805]
War the problem is they were trying to
[5809]
get all of these people assessed for
[5810]
PTSD and it was great like they were
[5812]
getting phone calls mail it was sort of
[5815]
saying hey we know that you served come
[5817]
on in or let's schedule you an exam with
[5819]
a psychologist and just see if your owed
[5822]
benefits the idea of it's great the
[5824]
problem is that they Outsource to this
[5827]
third party company they're paying
[5829]
really low rates for a one hour meeting
[5832]
with a vet and you don't need to be
[5836]
specifically trained in assessing PTSD
[5839]
um
[5840]
and so you're getting these variations
[5842]
and opinions that are coming through and
[5844]
I've had clients who to me who I've
[5847]
worked with for years who have clear
[5849]
combat related PTSD according to Gold
[5851]
Standard measures according to my
[5853]
knowing them and observing their
[5855]
symptoms and how impaired they are and
[5857]
it is clearly associated with combat the
[5859]
content of their intrusive thoughts
[5861]
their nightmares Etc
[5863]
and they are having a one-hour meeting
[5866]
sometimes by phone with one of these
[5869]
psychologists who's been contracted by
[5871]
this third party organization that's not
[5874]
even enough for me to get through the
[5875]
first three few symptom questions on the
[5878]
Caps five assessment for PTSD but in
[5881]
that hour the psychology psychologist is
[5883]
saying definitively no PTSD
[5885]
and it's been a travesty for some people
[5888]
especially for those who need an
[5890]
advocate the most it tends to happen to
[5893]
my veterans who are maybe a little bit
[5895]
less sophisticated and presenting or
[5897]
advocating for themselves more humble
[5899]
less
[5900]
um you know the guys who need deserve it
[5903]
the most right they're just getting
[5905]
passed over and um and it's a maze I'm
[5908]
not quite sure what the solution is
[5910]
though before I mean I've worked for
[5911]
government agencies they're dealing it's
[5913]
a massive population I love that the
[5916]
Outreach is even happening and trying to
[5918]
get these guys in for assessment I think
[5920]
we can criticize any system
[5922]
um I'm glad that system is even
[5924]
happening but it still needs to be
[5926]
better so I've I've got a chance to
[5929]
interact with a lot of soldiers from uh
[5931]
that served in Iraq and Afghanistan and
[5933]
now a lot of soldiers from all different
[5935]
kinds of nations in Ukraine went to the
[5937]
front
[5938]
there's a there's a bond between
[5941]
soldiers unlike any other I don't know
[5943]
if you can speak to why do you think
[5946]
that is on the opposite side of PTSD
[5949]
there's a there's a deep human
[5952]
connection there's like a love for each
[5953]
other what is that what what is that
[5955]
about war and combat that creates that
[5959]
kind of well you're seeing a
[5961]
we talked earlier about that
[5962]
vulnerability right so
[5965]
I I believe that combat I believe that
[5968]
most survival situations strip away all
[5971]
ego and
[5974]
um
[5975]
real in I mean there are a couple
[5976]
different layers to this but I have not
[5979]
served in war so I um I want to be
[5982]
cautious here but
[5984]
from what I know uh just about
[5986]
psychology and also from my own
[5988]
experience of survival survival type
[5990]
experiences when you're with a group of
[5992]
people and uh
[5995]
all the ego Stripped Away Nothing Else
[5997]
Matters the focus is on the here and now
[5999]
and a specific Mission
[6001]
um or your day to day
[6003]
you can get really close you're very
[6005]
very vulnerable and
[6008]
um and also
[6010]
in my experience the guys I work with
[6013]
who have served there aren't a lot of
[6015]
people who understand what they've been
[6017]
through not only some of the Unspeakable
[6020]
things they've been through in combat
[6021]
but some of the things that they feel
[6023]
are unspeakable about returning
[6025]
especially if they are experiencing
[6027]
trauma a lot of them you know some of
[6031]
the things that service members with
[6033]
PTSD are the most reluctant to disclose
[6036]
is the feeling like they may not know if
[6038]
they love their children anymore or
[6040]
their wife
[6041]
that they don't even know if they can
[6043]
love anymore that they feel emotionally
[6045]
numb
[6047]
um
[6048]
that they want to kill someone that they
[6050]
have a whole lot of racist beliefs and
[6052]
thoughts
[6053]
um there are a lot of things that can be
[6056]
associated with PTSD that aren't as
[6059]
clear or expected and these guys
[6062]
don't have many people who understand it
[6064]
or they don't think they would
[6066]
but a lot of their fellow service
[6069]
members do
[6073]
and so I'm going back to Ukraine and um
[6078]
boy nothing makes
[6084]
nothing makes uh reveals a human
[6087]
condition
[6088]
in a more pure form than War
[6094]
especially the kind of War you get in
[6096]
that in that part of the world
[6098]
especially the war in Ukraine which is a
[6100]
very 20th century kind of War
[6103]
um brutal
[6106]
laughs
[6107]
well uh like I mentioned in a few
[6110]
different ways you're exceptionally
[6112]
Successful by I think the best
[6114]
definition of success you you you're
[6117]
doing what you love and you're one of
[6119]
the uh best people in the world of doing
[6122]
it and so whatever advice would you give
[6126]
to young people that look up to you that
[6127]
sorry for the TR in the trial which is
[6129]
your most public-facing thing
[6132]
um and are just looking young people
[6135]
that are looking to find what they want
[6137]
to do with their life career-wise or I
[6139]
love that question what would you tell
[6141]
them I'm gonna tell them something my
[6142]
dad told me he said to me Shannon just
[6146]
pick anything
[6148]
pick anything
[6150]
if you like it at all studying it just
[6153]
pick it
[6154]
he was like look
[6156]
don't worry about the job you don't even
[6158]
know all the jobs that exist
[6160]
pick something you like you will make it
[6163]
your own and that is exactly what
[6165]
happened
[6166]
I like psychology I was reading somehow
[6168]
self-help books it's not like I had this
[6171]
calling where I you know looking back I
[6175]
can actually create that story because I
[6178]
think now it makes a lot of sense that I
[6180]
do what I do but I was lost and scared I
[6184]
started studying psychology I met a
[6187]
professor who was really inspiring who
[6189]
wasn't even a psychology professor at
[6191]
you but he was public policy
[6193]
I stayed in touch with that Professor he
[6196]
is a dear friend still to this day that
[6198]
was 20 years ago we do research together
[6200]
in Mexico integrative research with uh
[6203]
you know public policy officials and
[6205]
environmental engineers and I get to be
[6207]
the psychologist on the trip I never
[6209]
ever dreamed that that sort of stuff
[6211]
could happen I didn't know about
[6212]
forensic psychology I also want to warn
[6215]
anybody who's interested in forensic
[6216]
psychology that's not like you're like
[6218]
solving crimes all day and getting
[6220]
called by the FBI you are going to be
[6223]
sitting alone in your home office with
[6225]
your husband bringing you like bowls of
[6227]
cereal and reminding you to go to the
[6229]
bathroom because you haven't gotten up
[6231]
in like 24 hours from the computer and
[6234]
uh you're gonna have papers all around
[6236]
you and you're just gonna write 75 dense
[6240]
pages with citations of like science
[6245]
it's brutal it's academic
[6248]
um but you're good but it's fulfilling
[6250]
my friend my friend Franny posted a meme
[6253]
of one of the girls from glears that
[6256]
they crying and saying like I'm the
[6258]
happiest I've ever been and she said It
[6260]
reminds her when I try to convince her
[6262]
to do forensic psych because I think her
[6264]
mind is perfect for it you have to be
[6265]
strategic and throw but it it's a slug
[6269]
but it's wonderful it's wonderful the
[6271]
image of your husband bringing you
[6272]
cereal while you work on the 75 pages is
[6275]
maybe the most romantic thing I've ever
[6277]
heard so we started on love let me ask
[6281]
one last question about the same topic
[6283]
what's the role of love in this whole
[6285]
thing
[6286]
in The Human Condition and this whole
[6288]
experiment we've got going on on Earth
[6291]
I think it's all there is like that
[6293]
Jewel song
[6294]
how does that go I don't don't sing it
[6297]
don't sing it don't get it in my head
[6298]
please don't so
[6300]
uh there have been some profound moments
[6303]
in my life where I feel like I uh am
[6306]
closest to kind of the truth of life or
[6310]
what it's all about and usually there's
[6312]
this resonating sense of love and ease
[6315]
and love for myself love for other
[6318]
people sort of like it's all okay we're
[6321]
all okay we're gonna get through this
[6323]
um
[6325]
I liked what you said about the harm
[6328]
caused by
[6329]
like the misinformation or negative
[6331]
things being said about you
[6333]
because you're right it it harms that
[6336]
bigger picture I think it holds us back
[6338]
takes us back from that truth that
[6342]
there's a love that connects all of us
[6343]
and that uh if you remember about that
[6346]
love it's all going to be okay I really
[6348]
hope it's going to be okay me too I
[6352]
believe it would be thank you so much
[6353]
for talking today Shannon you're an
[6355]
incredible person thank you for
[6356]
everything you do and for everything you
[6358]
stand for and uh from everything from
[6361]
your text message to just who you are
[6363]
and for this amazing conversation thank
[6366]
you
[6367]
thanks for listening to this
[6368]
conversation with Shannon Curry to
[6370]
support this podcast please check out
[6372]
our sponsors in the description and now
[6374]
let me leave you some more words from
[6377]
Charles Bukowski
[6379]
sometimes you climb out of bed in the
[6381]
morning and you think
[6382]
I'm not going to make it
[6384]
but you laugh inside remembering all the
[6387]
times you felt that way
[6390]
thank you for listening I hope to see
[6392]
you next time