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Shannon Curry: Johnny Depp & Amber Heard Trial, Marriage, Dating & Love | Lex Fridman Podcast #366 - YouTube

Channel: Lex Fridman

[0]

so contempt is criticism on steroids

[2]

this is what John gottman calls sulfuric

[5]

acid for love nothing will erode a

[8]

relationship quicker than contempt

[10]

contempt is when you are looking at your

[12]

partner from a superior position so you

[16]

are eye rolling you are name calling

[19]

um there's a mockery mocking even

[22]

physical mockery imitating them

[24]

imitating their voice contempt is meant

[27]

to just take the legs out from your

[29]

partner make them feel pathetic

[30]

ridiculous

[32]

um and it can be abusive but

[36]

um most people have engaged in contempt

[38]

at some point in their relationship

[39]

lower level would be sort of the eye

[41]

rolling but that is the biggest

[43]

predictor of a split

[47]

the following is a conversation with

[48]

Shannon Curry a clinical and forensic

[50]

psychologist who conducts research

[52]

therapy and psychological evaluations

[55]

pertaining to trauma violence and

[57]

relationships she received worldwide

[60]

attention in April of last year by

[63]

giving a lengthy televised testimony on

[65]

her psychological evaluation of Amber

[68]

Heard during the Johnny Depp Amber Heard

[70]

trial I found her testimony to be an

[73]

eloquent description of complex

[75]

psychological Concepts and evaluations

[77]

procedures so I reached out for a chat

[81]

in person she was brilliant funny

[83]

thoughtful and truly kind I really

[87]

really enjoyed this conversation this is

[89]

the Lex Friedman podcast to support it

[91]

please check out our sponsors in the

[93]

description and now dear friends here's

[96]

Shannon Curry

[98]

Charles Bukowski said that love is a fog

[101]

that burns away with the first daylight

[103]

of reality I love that quote uh do you

[105]

think romantic love Fades away in this

[107]

way Makowski uh does it does it have to

[110]

fade the truth is that you have all of

[112]

these chemicals pumping through your

[114]

body you're essentially high on heroin

[115]

in the beginning of a romance and you're

[118]

going to have these rose-colored glasses

[120]

on everything your partner does is

[122]

magical and but really it's the novelty

[125]

it's just like going on a vacation

[126]

you're fully present you're just attuned

[128]

to the magic of another human being

[130]

moment to moment and then on top of that

[133]

you have you're just flooded with

[134]

dopamine so you're high on drugs and we

[137]

can't go on like that you will die if

[139]

you are using these kinds of chemicals

[142]

all the time all day long so eventually

[145]

our bodies are sort of made to dial it

[148]

down we've made it I mean we're

[150]

evolutionary beings we are doing the

[152]

same thing we did 200 000 years ago to

[155]

find a mate procreate spend enough time

[157]

with each other that we have sex with

[158]

whole bunch of times and make babies

[160]

now we've changed the rules of the game

[162]

we're living you know almost until we're

[164]

100 years old in some cases we're making

[167]

these marriage commitments that last

[170]

half a century and uh we're expecting it

[174]

to be all because of love and we're

[177]

signing these contracts based on how we

[179]

feel when we're high on these drugs so

[180]

the reality is we know based on the re

[183]

and and I'm also talking about certain

[185]

Western civilizations here because as

[188]

you know there are arranged marriages

[190]

and a lot of times those marriages if

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we're looking at longevity are actually

[195]

way more satisfied than people who are

[197]

marrying for love which logically makes

[200]

sense if you're making a decision based

[202]

on a feeling that is basically based on

[205]

endorphins and dopamine and oxytocin

[208]

I wouldn't sign a contract just because

[210]

of a feeling necessary you know for 50

[213]

years whereas an arranged marriage if

[215]

you have your elders kind of deciding

[217]

for you that this partner has a bunch of

[219]

traits that you're going to appreciate

[221]

more and more over time

[223]

I think there's some wisdom there so you

[225]

don't think that feeling could be a

[227]

foundation for a 50-year relationship

[229]

well I don't think that specific feeling

[232]

you're having based on drugs is going to

[236]

be the same feeling you have 20 30 40

[239]

years down the line if you're going to

[241]

wake up and turn to your partner when

[243]

you're 70 and think oh my God I'm so

[246]

glad you're hot you are so hot yeah then

[249]

sure marry for hotness but if you've

[252]

been through life a little bit and I

[253]

think most people who are on a second

[255]

marriage know [ __ ] happens in life it is

[259]

hard you're gonna have you know maybe a

[261]

kid with special needs or your dad gets

[264]

Dementia or you get diagnosed with

[267]

cancer who are you going to want to come

[269]

home to who is going to hold you when

[272]

you are sobbing on the floor and tell

[274]

you we're going to get through it

[276]

together who's going to know the names

[277]

of your kids special ed teacher and the

[280]

process for getting a 504 plan or is it

[282]

going to be you on your own I think

[284]

those things matter but doesn't that

[286]

hotness don't those drugs kind of

[289]

solidify into a deeper appreciation of

[291]

the other person

[293]

into something you could call Beauty yes

[296]

uh they can but but isn't that the same

[299]

isn't that the same thing when you know

[301]

when you notice the beauty of another

[302]

human being aren't you aren't you high

[304]

on drugs still you're making it sound

[306]

like there's like a a brief rock star

[308]

period of going on heroin and then it's

[312]

over but like can't you be on heroin

[313]

your whole life I have some good news

[316]

that was something I think one of the

[318]

reasons I got into studying

[320]

relationships was because I wanted that

[322]

right so I'm a scientist but I also love

[325]

art and I love writing and I love

[327]

literature I wanted to know that true

[330]

love could be real but as a scientist I

[333]

am cynical I just need some data and

[336]

when so I practice the type of therapy

[339]

called the gottman method and I love

[341]

that because it tends to be well it is

[344]

one of the most evidence-based therapies

[347]

we have based on John and Julie gottman

[350]

two psychologists who have been

[351]

researching relationships for now about

[353]

50 years and this therapy happens to be

[357]

for couples they found that you

[359]

absolutely can make longevity work in a

[363]

relationship you can build you are not

[366]

just settling for companionship but you

[368]

can have passion and intimacy and

[370]

growing love and appreciation but there

[373]

is a blueprint a set of skills that we

[375]

were never given we're not taught in

[376]

school we changed the rules of the game

[378]

and we haven't learned the rules yet

[381]

and uh the government method for couples

[383]

therapy kind of gives you a few

[385]

guidelines the rules for longevity in a

[387]

relationship yeah they did a beautiful

[389]

job at taking these findings they had

[392]

through you know Decades of research

[394]

quantifying it and then codifying it

[397]

into a therapy method it's really skills

[400]

based I tell couples when they're

[402]

starting out with me that they're

[403]

essentially going to be starting a class

[406]

so what's the five to one Golden Rule

[408]

what I read is there's the kind of

[410]

balance you can achieve of

[413]

uh how many interactions you have in a

[416]

relationships that are positive versus

[417]

negative and I think that's what the

[420]

five to one means but basically there

[422]

should be a kind of an empirical

[425]

like if you just look back over over a

[427]

month how many of the interactions were

[429]

positive for the day or the day

[432]

right so the the idea of this ratio

[436]

um well it's not an idea it was a

[437]

finding it is uh research finding that

[440]

the gottman's got after looking at

[442]

thousands of couples

[444]

um and codifying these interactions that

[446]

they were observing couples that tend to

[449]

be satisfied in their relationships that

[453]

are happier they have better health Etc

[455]

they are having approximately five

[459]

positive interactions to each negative

[461]

and I want to be clear about what I'm

[464]

defining as positive and negative here

[466]

so this doesn't necessarily mean that

[468]

you're these don't need to be big

[470]

sweeping romantic gestures buying

[472]

flowers having sex these are things like

[475]

paying attention to what we call your

[477]

partner's bids we make these bids for

[480]

affection for connection all the time in

[484]

our relationships not just with our

[485]

partners but with our friends our

[486]

co-workers and we may not even know what

[489]

our style of bid is but if you see them

[491]

on a sheet you can pretty quickly

[492]

identify them bids could be wanting to

[495]

show your partner tell your partner

[496]

something and have them be proud of you

[498]

it could be wanting to go buy groceries

[502]

with your partner doing things together

[503]

hey you want to come with me it could be

[505]

telling a joke and hoping that your wife

[508]

looks up from her email on the computer

[510]

and acknowledges it if she laughs then

[513]

you've got a positive but if I don't

[516]

even look up that's a negative right so

[519]

it's not necessarily that I'm calling my

[520]

husband an [ __ ] it's just am I

[523]

connecting with him am I meeting those

[525]

bids for connection and vice versa but

[528]

do those also give you a guide of how

[530]

you should behave

[532]

well I think what's really important is

[534]

actually asking your partner or paying

[537]

attention to what your partner's bids

[538]

are because what matters to Ty my

[541]

husband may not matter to you for

[543]

instance I mean Ty's bar is so low with

[546]

me I thank God what defines the positive

[549]

interaction right like he just wants me

[552]

once become if if he wants a water when

[555]

I get up to get myself one just be a

[557]

basic decent considerate person is all

[560]

he asks of me whereas mine might be sort

[563]

of like stay up later with me watch a

[565]

show

[566]

um go to bed at the same time as me or

[569]

um know about the people in my life that

[571]

sort of a thing I should highlight this

[573]

and I hope hopefully it's okay that you

[575]

were running a little bit late and you

[576]

sent me this text which is which people

[579]

do really rarely and there's a subtle

[582]

act of kindness within that text so the

[584]

the you the text you sent was that

[588]

um I just decreased the amount of stress

[590]

in your life or something like this by

[591]

saying it's cool but that means that you

[594]

were you're you're signaling that you

[596]

were stressed

[597]

because you care enough to be there on

[600]

time and that was like that made me feel

[603]

really special I was like oh you know

[605]

people don't know people don't often

[608]

don't always do that because that puts

[610]

you also that makes you vulnerable

[611]

vulnerable and I actually thought that

[614]

after I sent it but I feel that most of

[616]

the day any interaction like oh God I

[619]

just expose myself but absolutely I was

[621]

excited to be here and I didn't want you

[624]

to think that I didn't care

[626]

I think being a therapist has shown me

[629]

that it really it's so lucky to be in

[633]

that position because you meet people

[634]

that you would have thought are cooler

[637]

than you or smarter than you or just

[639]

somehow impervious to life and you

[642]

realize that we are all in it together

[643]

we all want to be cared about and liked

[647]

we all would want to be liked as a

[649]

baseline I some people will say they

[651]

don't care but everybody does it's human

[654]

and I have gotten much better being a

[657]

therapist much more comfortable showing

[659]

caring showing love and genuineness and

[662]

vulnerability than I think I ever would

[663]

have been otherwise and that kind of

[665]

vulnerability is what's required to do a

[667]

positive interaction in a relationship I

[669]

think so and and people have different

[671]

levels of comfort right so

[674]

um but as long as it's working for both

[675]

partners and typically you have to

[677]

communicate to figure out what your

[679]

partner what makes your partner feel

[681]

cared about however you might be working

[684]

for instance with an older couple and I

[686]

have a couple that's perfectly happy and

[688]

they sort of have a system it works for

[690]

them if there's some sort of a rupture

[693]

if they get in some sort of a

[694]

disagreement they don't talk it out she

[696]

might go to the store run an errand

[698]

doing do a little shopping he'll work in

[700]

the wood shop and then they'll come back

[702]

and there is a repair attempt though but

[705]

it's maybe she'll say hey do you want to

[707]

have dinner or come you know I made your

[709]

favorite dinner and or he'll say hey I

[712]

recorded your favorite show you want to

[713]

watch it tonight so they don't need to

[715]

process it but there is an understanding

[717]

between them that we're still in this

[718]

together we care about each other and

[721]

there's a repair attempt

[722]

most people need to be able to process

[724]

it verbally and talk about what happened

[726]

not all so for most people if there's a

[729]

conflict you should talk about and

[731]

resolve it and repair it versus like

[733]

just put it behind you I I don't want to

[736]

say should I guess it depends on the

[738]

couple yeah everybody processes emotions

[740]

differently everybody handles emotional

[742]

expression differently I mean I have

[745]

couples where I have one person in the

[747]

partnership who has autism and the other

[749]

doesn't and so they're obviously going

[752]

to have different ways of communicating

[754]

or processing what happened we all have

[756]

different perspectives it really depends

[759]

on what makes a person feel like it's

[762]

been repaired what makes a person feel

[764]

understood does that need to be verbal

[766]

or in the case of that older couple I

[768]

have where they know they understand one

[771]

another because there's a gentleness

[772]

toward one another after

[774]

what are some common ways relationships

[776]

fail that you've observed and all the

[778]

therapy you've done well the governments

[781]

identified what they call the Four

[783]

Horsemen of the Apocalypse so okay

[786]

I mean I could just keep it simple and

[789]

go off their research so they're those

[792]

are four different behaviors that they

[794]

identify in couples or that you can

[797]

identify in couples that are really

[798]

highly predictive of a divorce some more

[800]

than others but I'll start with the

[802]

lower ones

[803]

so one thing that we by the way actually

[806]

we all do these things these would be in

[810]

that five to one ratio you'd want to

[812]

stay away from some of these these are

[813]

the ones so as they pile up now that

[816]

ratio is going to get imbalanced and

[818]

then you are headed for a split okay so

[821]

the first is criticism

[823]

so criticism is when we have a complaint

[825]

complaints are normal but instead of

[828]

owning our own problems our own feelings

[830]

we assume that our perspective is com

[833]

the only valid accurate perspective and

[836]

so we uh take it upon ourselves to tell

[839]

our partner what is wrong with them okay

[841]

so there there's essentially no real

[845]

belief that they might have a valid

[847]

perspective too so

[849]

this could look like you never helped me

[852]

out in that with the house or even

[855]

um you're so lazy like can't I just get

[857]

you for five seconds to help with the

[859]

kids or something like that

[861]

um and then what happens is Horsemen

[864]

number two defensiveness so uh not

[867]

everybody is defensive just because they

[869]

were criticized some people just are

[870]

more prone to defensiveness than others

[872]

none of us really like admitting our

[875]

faults so it's pretty natural

[877]

but defensiveness is essentially making

[879]

excuses or Worse turning it around on

[882]

your partner

[883]

not accepting any responsibility and

[886]

definitely not validating what they're

[888]

feeling

[889]

now if you get criticized enough or if

[892]

you get really flooded that flooding is

[894]

what happens when our heart rate goes up

[896]

kind of around 100 beats per minute our

[898]

frontal lobe shuts down that's our

[900]

thoughtful brain our logical brain and

[903]

our reptilian kind of hindbrain takes

[905]

over our thinking

[907]

and we just go into fight or flight in a

[909]

white week we just want to annihilate

[910]

our partner instead instead of say

[913]

anything that would be helpful to the

[914]

relationship

[915]

so if you're getting flooded you could

[918]

do a couple things you could get super

[920]

critical you could get contemptuous

[921]

which I'll talk about in a second it's

[923]

the last Horseman or you do the third

[925]

Horseman which is stonewalling and in

[928]

their research the gottman's found that

[930]

men are actually more likely to

[932]

Stonewall I also am someone who

[934]

stonewalls but it's where you just sort

[939]

of Disconnect from the conversation you

[942]

shut down you turn away you can

[945]

physically even turn away kind of arms

[947]

cross but you're just you're shut off

[949]

and stonewalling happens usually because

[952]

you get flooded you feel like you can't

[954]

win you don't know what to do to make

[955]

the situation better it feels pretty

[957]

hopeless and talking feels unproductive

[960]

so you can see how in a typical

[963]

heterosexual relationship the gender

[965]

Dynamic we know that women tend to use

[968]

criticism more often because they're the

[970]

ones that typically raise issues

[972]

verbally and then if men are feeling

[975]

more criticized that they tend to

[977]

Stonewall and it becomes this vicious

[979]

cycle of then more criticism but the

[982]

criticism is really just a plea to be

[984]

loved and get your partner to show you

[986]

they care and then the man tends to feel

[990]

like he can't do anything right this

[992]

isn't even productive if I say anything

[993]

I'm just going to make it worse and they

[996]

don't have any real you haven't given

[998]

them a specific need a solution

[1000]

something they can do to shine for you

[1001]

so they turn away and where's the uh

[1004]

contempt all right so contempt is

[1006]

criticism on steroids this is what John

[1009]

gottman calls sulfuric acid for love

[1012]

nothing will erode a relationship

[1014]

quicker than contempt contempt is when

[1017]

you are looking at your partner from a

[1019]

superior position so you are eye rolling

[1022]

you are name calling

[1025]

um there's a mockery mocking even

[1028]

physical mockery imitating them

[1030]

imitating their voice contempt is meant

[1033]

to just take the legs out from your

[1034]

partner make them feel pathetic

[1036]

ridiculous

[1038]

um and it can be abusive but

[1041]

um most people have engaged in contempt

[1044]

at some point in their relationship

[1045]

lower level would be sort of the eye

[1047]

rolling but that is the biggest

[1049]

predictor of a split if you allow

[1051]

yourself to think yeah that mockery or

[1054]

contempt just a little bit

[1056]

it's like this weird slippery slope sure

[1059]

is and the opposite is true

[1062]

where I just look at a person think wow

[1065]

isn't that the most like wonderful

[1067]

creature I've ever seen in my life like

[1069]

just think that and you notice the

[1070]

little details about who they are and so

[1072]

I just observe them the way you observe

[1074]

like a weird like peacock at a zoo or

[1076]

something like that attention is

[1077]

powerful isn't it yeah and it changes it

[1080]

change you start to notice beautiful

[1081]

things and then let

[1083]

uh the things that annoy you yes like

[1086]

just you're exactly right you're

[1088]

touching on some really important things

[1090]

so in relationships we actually know

[1093]

that wearing rose-colored glasses is

[1095]

important it's healthy we need it and

[1099]

it's a choice you're baking right so

[1101]

there is a saying that uh getting

[1105]

married is just choosing one person's

[1107]

faults over another and the reality is

[1110]

that we may become infatuated with

[1113]

somebody else as human beings love is an

[1115]

emotion attraction is emotion an emotion

[1117]

and as you go through life even if

[1118]

you're in a committed relationship you

[1120]

might see Beauty in another and that

[1123]

person who is novel might seem

[1125]

attractive to you but if you can

[1126]

remember that they too have a set of

[1130]

problems that you would be marrying it

[1133]

really helps you to

[1135]

see the beauty in your partner again and

[1138]

recognize all of their incredible

[1139]

strengths and all the ways we meld with

[1141]

the person and become our own family

[1144]

almost become I mean our lives

[1147]

intertwine and we grow those oak trees

[1149]

so she by the way this is a line I read

[1151]

somewhere that uh when you're wearing

[1154]

rose-colored glasses all the Red Flags

[1156]

looks just like Flags

[1159]

I think it's a good it's a good line uh

[1162]

so you so you think that humans are

[1165]

fundamentally all of us have

[1167]

fundamentally flawed or have flaws

[1169]

they're unique flaws and they're

[1171]

basically relationships is just the way

[1173]

to um

[1175]

they figure out how the two can fit

[1177]

together right and we're different so no

[1179]

matter what we're going to have

[1180]

differences we are raised differently

[1182]

than our partner we have different

[1184]

stories different experiences that

[1186]

shaped our value systems especially when

[1188]

it comes to the big ones like parenting

[1190]

love money

[1192]

um these principles that are based in

[1195]

our history

[1196]

we're going to have differences so are

[1199]

is this a set of differences you can

[1201]

accept from somebody and work with do

[1203]

the benefits and their strengths

[1206]

um do they make it worth it or is it are

[1209]

they deal breaker differences uh tricky

[1212]

question but uh in the in the couples

[1214]

you've worked with is there

[1216]

like the feminine and the masculine is

[1219]

there different dynamics that come into

[1221]

play like dominant submissive is there

[1223]

is it like a dance where it just changes

[1225]

from minute to minute is there is there

[1227]

dynamics that you observe that both

[1231]

limit and enable

[1233]

uh successful relationships yes so there

[1236]

are if we're talking about masculine

[1239]

feminine

[1240]

then now also art we could get into are

[1242]

we talking about actual gender

[1244]

identified gender or are we just talking

[1246]

about these traits because like I said

[1248]

ice Stonewall which is typically in

[1250]

couples something that is more

[1251]

associated with straight men

[1254]

[1255]

but that's my style of coping when I get

[1257]

overwhelmed uh that is not tied to any

[1261]

sort of success or non-success of a

[1263]

relationship but what we do know is that

[1266]

gay couples so lesbians and gay men tend

[1270]

to be gentler with one another when they

[1272]

are having conflict discussions I so

[1275]

that's actually been identified in the

[1277]

research and it's something I've

[1278]

witnessed and it's just fascinating so

[1280]

with my Straight couples I'll be going

[1283]

through one of these if we're processing

[1285]

a conflict that occurred I'll be going

[1287]

through the sheet and it's very very

[1288]

structured because you don't want

[1290]

couples doing more damage when they're

[1292]

there with you you want them practicing

[1293]

skills that protect them from criticism

[1297]

that protect them from contempt

[1299]

and when I'm working with a straight

[1301]

couple I am like a referee or sometimes

[1305]

I'll relate it to being like a ski coach

[1307]

and keeping people on a bunny Hill and

[1310]

you tell them you let them make like two

[1312]

turns and then you stop them and you

[1314]

meet up again because you don't want

[1315]

them to Veer off with straight couples

[1317]

you are doing very short turns before

[1319]

you need to kind of intervene and

[1321]

rescaffold

[1322]

I had a lesbian couple recently and they

[1325]

were so lovely with each other they

[1326]

skipped like seven steps to the advanced

[1329]

final portion where they were already

[1331]

coming up with Solutions and suggesting

[1333]

things that they might be able to do

[1335]

differently next time to make it better

[1336]

for their partner they were asking each

[1338]

other questions about how their partner

[1341]

felt with no agenda no attempt to sort

[1343]

of be like well do you think you're

[1345]

feeling that way because which straight

[1347]

couples do all the time you just see

[1350]

this humility and openness it's lovely

[1352]

yeah it's lovely but I wonder if uh

[1356]

maybe watching too many Hollywood films

[1358]

is some of the drama some of the tension

[1361]

is required for a passionate lifelong

[1364]

romance no it's not and that's great

[1367]

news

[1368]

so we actually know yes that The Closer

[1372]

You Feel to your partner so if I mean

[1375]

you've talked a lot about beauty and

[1378]

you can ignite that beauty that interest

[1381]

right so when you're falling in love

[1384]

it's usually that a person is sort of a

[1386]

mystery to you and you're uncovering

[1388]

these layers that you find really

[1389]

appealing

[1391]

there are continual layers that you can

[1394]

uncover with your partner over time I

[1396]

don't think we realize that I think we

[1397]

get complacent and we think we've had

[1399]

every conversation imaginable what what

[1401]

else are they going to do to surprise me

[1404]

but we don't know the questions to be

[1405]

asking

[1407]

one of my favorite questions

[1409]

[1410]

I like turning these conversations kind

[1412]

of into a quiz because I get bored

[1414]

easily so you rather than just asking an

[1417]

open-ended question

[1419]

um there's a way you can do this with

[1420]

your partner where it's sort of like the

[1422]

dating game like what is my as of yet

[1426]

fondest but unrealized life dream and

[1429]

see if your partner knows you might not

[1431]

even know they might know you better

[1433]

than you know yourself that in and of

[1435]

itself is a beautiful reminder

[1437]

of the relationship and how special it

[1440]

is but then also

[1443]

when they say it or when you realize or

[1447]

have to think critically like what is my

[1449]

husband's as of yet unrealized but

[1451]

fondest life dream and then you can talk

[1453]

about it

[1455]

you just I don't know you just kind of

[1457]

transcend into this new area and you

[1460]

feel tight again you feel like you feel

[1462]

close well you really

[1464]

talk to each other like I I've recorded

[1467]

and without

[1470]

intending to publish uh podcasts like

[1473]

this with microphones with with friends

[1475]

with people close to me because it's

[1478]

literally that you get to ask questions

[1480]

like as if it's an interview right and

[1482]

we don't do that exactly it the way

[1484]

you're talking with me yeah sit down

[1486]

with your partner have that conversation

[1488]

like years later right show interest

[1491]

actually be curious see see what they

[1494]

surprise you with and actually when you

[1496]

learn is you don't know the answers to

[1498]

most these questions 100

[1500]

exactly like like what what's your

[1503]

favorite movie from the 80s you might

[1505]

not know the answer to that it's like

[1506]

those first date questions or whatever

[1508]

or what's your favorite movie this year

[1509]

and why and why yeah it's fascinating it

[1513]

is it's hard to do that because I think

[1515]

that you'll probably be offended at

[1517]

first how little the other person knows

[1518]

so I think you have to work through that

[1521]

you know I actually find that there's

[1524]

this rekindling because partners are

[1526]

shocked that their partner does know so

[1529]

much about them especially if they've

[1532]

been feeling dissatisfied or

[1533]

disconnected it's a reminder of all the

[1536]

good that's still there

[1538]

what uh I know we said some of those

[1541]

things but what's on the opposite side

[1543]

what's the key to a successful

[1544]

relationship what's like what are the

[1545]

things you see

[1546]

time and time again that do you

[1549]

designate that they're in a good path

[1550]

yeah there's a real Attunement honestly

[1554]

just it's

[1555]

um sort of an us against the world

[1556]

feeling nobody neither partner is going

[1559]

to talk [ __ ] on them the other uh

[1561]

there's a loyalty they handle each other

[1565]

in the relationship with care

[1567]

you can tell that they've worked some

[1569]

things I to me

[1571]

it usually indicates that these are some

[1573]

people who figured they've had to work

[1575]

some things out they know that this is

[1577]

delicate they know

[1580]

um you know that you're on thin ice you

[1582]

take a wrong step and you can be back in

[1584]

a tough place in your relationship or

[1586]

you treat it with care and it can be

[1588]

amazing

[1589]

so they're careful with one another they

[1591]

give each other compliments they are

[1594]

considerate so you'll see

[1597]

um you know he'll bring the car around

[1599]

for her because it's raining or

[1602]

she'll bring him home some takeout you

[1605]

know she'll order for him to at the

[1606]

restaurant there's just they keep each

[1608]

other in each other's minds but that us

[1610]

against the world thing

[1612]

that definitely is there like 100 you've

[1615]

seen that right yeah you've seen it and

[1617]

you've seen it like um I like it when

[1619]

couples have been together for a long

[1621]

time and when one is talking the other

[1624]

one looks at them if you don't do that

[1626]

that's not a bad sound but it's a good

[1628]

sign when you do that yes because uh and

[1630]

I think it's actually a really good

[1632]

um exercise to do because I because I

[1636]

enjoy when I see in others so it's it's

[1638]

[1640]

it's a way to show that you don't take

[1643]

him for granted and then you still find

[1646]

them like this mysterious wonderful

[1648]

creature to observe like I think too

[1651]

often we have that with our parents we

[1653]

have that with um people close to us you

[1657]

think yeah I've heard what they're about

[1658]

to say I know I know you can complete

[1660]

that sentence take them for granted and

[1661]

then if you if you just look at them and

[1663]

say wow this is the most brilliant

[1664]

person

[1665]

I've ever seen in my life most I can't

[1668]

you know you just appreciate every war

[1672]

that comes out of them and look at them

[1673]

in that way you actually begin to

[1675]

believe it yeah and you actually begin

[1677]

to see the beauty of what they're saying

[1679]

you are exactly right it's a

[1681]

self-fulfilling prophecy and caring yeah

[1684]

yeah it's very caring so that's I mean

[1688]

that's I think the beauty of what the

[1690]

gottman research showed us taught us

[1693]

provided us is that we can do these

[1696]

things that become cyclic and just keep

[1698]

growing this relationship making it

[1700]

stronger more powerful more loving you

[1702]

would never want to cut it down well we

[1704]

you were talking about the sheet for

[1706]

conflict processing what are we talking

[1709]

about so like a couple will come and say

[1711]

like there was this conflict and you put

[1713]

on the table and then what does it mean

[1714]

to process it so in that gottman method

[1717]

of therapy there are all these different

[1719]

I mean hundreds of different

[1720]

interventions and based on what the

[1722]

issue is in that session you can decide

[1725]

the most appropriate intervention and so

[1728]

this is a specific intervention for if

[1730]

it is a conflict that occurred and there

[1733]

are different types of conflicts so this

[1734]

would be more like an incident it's not

[1737]

a Perpetual recurring problem

[1739]

um which has actually a different

[1741]

intervention where you kind of look at

[1743]

the underlying belief systems values and

[1746]

there's the goal is not to solve that

[1749]

problem the goal in that situation is to

[1751]

actually just get a better understanding

[1752]

of each other and your positions and

[1755]

just you stop seeing your partner as the

[1758]

adverse area and you start seeing them

[1760]

as a person who makes sense

[1762]

but if there's been a specific event a

[1765]

specific fight that's just sort of

[1767]

situational

[1769]

but it's left Bad Blood things were said

[1771]

or you didn't feel understood this

[1774]

intervention I was talking about is one

[1776]

that you would go through a series of

[1778]

steps where first you identify the

[1780]

emotions that you were feeling

[1782]

then you describe play by play your

[1786]

movie your perspective if your partner

[1788]

we're looking through your eyes this is

[1790]

what they heard saw thought then they

[1794]

saw this then they heard this so you're

[1797]

not saying yeah then you came in were

[1800]

yelling and acting crazy you're saying

[1801]

so then I saw you come in

[1803]

I heard you say and I thought to myself

[1807]

well great now everything's ruined right

[1810]

so you're showing them your movie then

[1812]

they have to summarize the movie for you

[1815]

and then vice versa

[1817]

and then there's this um Step where each

[1820]

person validates some part that they can

[1822]

understand like based on what you saw

[1825]

heard I can't actually understand how

[1827]

you felt one of those feelings that you

[1830]

said then my favorite part is you rewind

[1832]

sort of the movie

[1834]

from that day back through into

[1837]

childhood and you land on a time a

[1839]

memory when you felt a similar set of

[1841]

feelings

[1842]

and this is like the most beautiful part

[1844]

ever because let's say the feeling was I

[1847]

felt misunderstood I felt

[1850]

um misjudged uncared about unloved like

[1854]

you didn't even like me and I'll say

[1856]

when did you feel that way you know land

[1858]

on a time and they're like my whole

[1859]

childhood you know my parents were my

[1862]

mom was always accusing me of doing

[1863]

things I wasn't doing and it would set

[1865]

me up and my dad would come home he'd

[1866]

hear about it he would just believe her

[1868]

and then you have like a partner

[1870]

climbing up on the couch like give their

[1873]

partner a hug while they're sharing the

[1874]

story it's beautiful and it changes the

[1876]

way you interact in future disagreements

[1879]

so you have those moments yeah you can't

[1881]

unlearn now you know this about your

[1884]

partner you know what they're sensitive

[1885]

[1887]

yeah and again you kind of see the the

[1889]

Beauty and the flaws then right

[1892]

it all makes sense yeah it all kind of

[1895]

makes sense yeah so you maybe were in

[1896]

this dumpster dive in your head of how

[1898]

your partner sucks and all the things

[1900]

that are wrong with them and it's so

[1901]

hopeless and then you get this light

[1903]

shining through and you realize oh my

[1905]

god of course they would be sensitive to

[1907]

that and suddenly it's not about all the

[1910]

ways your partner is wrong and proving

[1912]

that they're wrong it's just how can I

[1914]

in the future make sure they do not feel

[1916]

this again I would never want this

[1918]

person I love to misunderstand me and

[1921]

feel so unloved what are you uh the

[1924]

early days of that what do you think

[1925]

about the whole dating

[1927]

modern dating process how do you find a

[1930]

partner

[1931]

that you can um

[1934]

stay with for the rest of your life so

[1936]

we are absolutely doing it wrong and um

[1939]

but there is a way you can do it and I

[1941]

am such a fan of the psychologist Thai

[1943]

tashiro I adore him he is brilliant he's

[1946]

lovely he's also very humble

[1948]

just a wonderful salt of the earth guy

[1951]

I'm gonna tell you a very true story

[1953]

here okay let's go I was in a bad

[1955]

relationship and I was

[1957]

um at a psychology conference with my

[1960]

partner at the time

[1962]

um we were both at this conference and

[1964]

we were sitting in a lecture hall uh

[1966]

there for Tai tashiro to do his talk

[1969]

that day on his phenomenal research on

[1972]

relationship satisfaction and dating

[1975]

um and I was sitting next to him and

[1977]

we'd been you know it was just always

[1979]

unpleasant on trips there were always

[1981]

fights we're sitting there and Thai

[1983]

tashiro starts talking about his

[1986]

research and how he found that most

[1988]

people are you know signing this

[1989]

agreement getting married and doing it

[1992]

based on the love endorphins and really

[1995]

only about 35 percent of anybody who's

[1997]

married is actually happy

[2000]

um and he said so then

[2003]

you know and exactly but here's what I

[2006]

love about Tai tashiro is he didn't stop

[2008]

there he wanted to know what those

[2010]

people who were happy

[2013]

um had in common

[2014]

and then same thing with the people who

[2016]

were unhappy he found a couple

[2017]

fascinating patterns

[2020]

so the couples who were happy

[2024]

tended to rate their Partners higher in

[2027]

three different traits and I love

[2029]

talking about this because if you are

[2032]

somebody who can follow instructions you

[2034]

can find this I mean very easily those

[2038]

three traits tend to be

[2039]

conscientiousness

[2042]

okay and I love the word

[2044]

conscientiousness because it's not just

[2046]

kindness kindness is a good way to think

[2048]

of it but

[2050]

you can be kind and kind of be a

[2052]

pushover and that's not attractive

[2053]

conscientiousness is smart attentive

[2057]

it's somebody who reads into a text

[2059]

message and thinks wow she was making

[2061]

herself very vulnerable there

[2063]

that's conscientiousness I like how you

[2065]

just do an accomplishment it's true it's

[2068]

a certain intelligence awareness and

[2070]

Attunement

[2072]

and then on top of that

[2073]

conscientiousness is motivated so you

[2076]

can't be on your ass all day and be

[2077]

conscientious because then you can't

[2080]

meet the needs that you anticipate about

[2082]

the person so conscientious is that guy

[2084]

who drives the car around in the

[2086]

rainstorm so his wife's hair doesn't get

[2087]

met it's my husband who checks my alarm

[2090]

for me every morning because he knows

[2091]

I'm terrible at time management and he

[2093]

makes sure that I set it a reasonable

[2095]

amount of time before my first meeting

[2097]

and not let 20 minutes I think I need

[2100]

and then he'll come wake me up with a

[2102]

cup of coffee that is Ultimate

[2104]

conscientiousness

[2105]

and it is true I mean I will tell you as

[2108]

somebody who's with a conscientious

[2109]

partner Your Love increases over time as

[2113]

you continue to feel grateful and

[2115]

admiring of that person

[2117]

the second one

[2119]

you want somebody who is low in a Big

[2122]

Five personality trait called

[2123]

neuroticism

[2125]

um you want somebody emotionally stable

[2127]

in a way now this doesn't mean you can't

[2129]

have somebody who doesn't get the blues

[2131]

or struggle with mental health issues

[2132]

trust me Ty is with somebody who you

[2134]

know I get I'm all over the place but

[2137]

you want somebody who kind of owns their

[2140]

[ __ ] and isn't going to just

[2144]

be emotionally unstable all over you

[2148]

know you want somebody who is generally

[2151]

happy and has some life satisfaction

[2154]

um having a partner who has serious not

[2157]

mental health issues but unmitigated

[2160]

emotional distress and instability is

[2164]

really hard on the partner and it's

[2166]

really hard on other family members

[2167]

including children if you have children

[2169]

so it's just a predictor of Happiness so

[2172]

there's a certain threshold of chaos

[2175]

that if you exceed it it's going to be

[2177]

destructive to a long-term relationship

[2179]

a perfect description chaos

[2182]

not the mystery chaos you love as your

[2185]

with your little Pro poet brain yeah I'm

[2187]

talking more like just somebody who

[2190]

there's just no peace there's no peace

[2193]

there's a problem with everything

[2194]

everything becomes more difficult going

[2197]

to a party is a chore a you don't know

[2199]

if they're gonna have a meltdown at the

[2201]

party or how many complaints about your

[2203]

friends or

[2205]

um everything is a problem so you want

[2208]

somebody who has just some resiliency I

[2211]

think is a good term for it some

[2213]

flexibility some spice is okay but not

[2215]

too much like right flexibility

[2216]

resiliency easy going yeah Okay the

[2220]

third is

[2222]

um really interesting I think so he

[2225]

found that

[2227]

having a partner with sort of moderate

[2229]

adventurousness not high adventurousness

[2232]

actually leads to greater greater

[2234]

satisfaction and the reason for that is

[2236]

high adventurousness equals novelty

[2239]

seeking shiny new things and so if

[2243]

you're in a monogamous relationship if

[2245]

that is what's important to you it's

[2247]

going to be very hard for a partner who

[2250]

is novelty seeking to be faithful

[2253]

um so that will cause a lot of pain but

[2255]

also

[2256]

um novelty seeking people tend to always

[2259]

have new projects new interesting things

[2261]

and so their attention is drawn away

[2263]

from the relationship and so you can

[2266]

just feel pretty neglected or

[2268]

unimportant

[2269]

by a little bit but you want a little

[2271]

bit of adventurousness so you want your

[2273]

person to be uh sort of self-motivated

[2276]

uh individuated have their own interests

[2278]

not completely dependent on you but also

[2280]

I mean low adventurousness is not a bad

[2282]

thing ultimately what you're getting

[2284]

with low to moderate adventurousness is

[2286]

that rock that feeling of stability that

[2288]

home and I made some references earlier

[2291]

like when you're 70 and you turn to your

[2293]

partner do you want them to be hot or

[2295]

you know for instance my dad has

[2297]

dementia right now and my husband turned

[2299]

to me on the plane we were all coming

[2300]

back from a trip and where we really saw

[2302]

how severe it's getting

[2304]

and he just turned to me he knew how

[2307]

much pain I was in even though I might

[2309]

wasn't showing it and he said I want you

[2311]

to know that if it comes to a point

[2313]

where we need to take care of your dad

[2314]

he needs to live with us you don't even

[2316]

need to ask it is I am 100 on board and

[2320]

will help and uh those are the things

[2323]

that matter that home feeling and

[2326]

technically that's a trait that's

[2327]

usually that's sort of a

[2329]

my husband caring so much about family

[2332]

and home and taking care of things that

[2334]

matter those are things that tend to be

[2336]

associated with that low to moderate

[2338]

adventurousness somebody who really

[2340]

cares about simple things and family I

[2343]

wonder if those things those those three

[2345]

things that something you can work on

[2347]

you know Consciousness you can probably

[2349]

you can

[2350]

proactively observe yourself

[2353]

and you know do it more regularly right

[2356]

neuroticism might be the hardest one

[2358]

probably I think so well I mean I

[2362]

I was pretty neurotic in my early 20s

[2364]

and when you wake up to it maybe you if

[2367]

you're self-aware about it maybe you'll

[2368]

be able to control it yeah I think

[2369]

self-awareness is key I think I think

[2372]

that's why I love therapy so much I

[2374]

think life is about growth and our

[2376]

potential for growth and to make our own

[2379]

lives better to make the lives of others

[2380]

better to serve others to heal all of us

[2383]

through this Collective healing and I

[2385]

think we're all capable of growth and

[2387]

the same with adventurousness you can

[2389]

I'm somebody that's pretty pretty low on

[2392]

adventure but I keep throwing myself out

[2395]

there just for the extra adventures and

[2397]

you can grow in that way yes and I am

[2399]

high in adventurousness and I was not

[2401]

really ready to settle down I was

[2403]

married earlier in my 20s but I would

[2406]

say that I am much more prepared to be

[2409]

in a committed long-term relationship

[2410]

now in my 40s than I was when I was

[2412]

younger but in that same way for me I

[2414]

like to connect myself to high adventure

[2417]

people so that it like brings me brings

[2419]

me out it's like uh they're a horse and

[2421]

I'm get to ride them and that's the

[2423]

thing so high adventure people are

[2425]

attractive they're interesting exciting

[2427]

but it can be a world of heartbreak

[2429]

because you know you're only under that

[2431]

Spotlight for a few minutes and then

[2433]

they're on to the next shiny thing yeah

[2434]

but heartbreak is part of love

[2436]

but that might be the drug thing that

[2438]

you were talking about speaking of

[2439]

adventurousness what about sex it's

[2442]

important sex playing a successful

[2444]

relationship well it okay so I'm saying

[2447]

it's important but I want to qualify

[2449]

that everybody has different levels of

[2452]

sex that are satisfying to them sex can

[2455]

definitely Bond you to your partner

[2456]

orgasms are amazing they de-stress us

[2459]

they're healthy they I mean you can have

[2461]

an orgasm and have a lower level of

[2465]

stress for 48 hours I think that's

[2467]

pretty incredible

[2469]

[2470]

if you have I mean just that kind of

[2473]

physical contact with your partner even

[2475]

a 20 second hug with your partner has

[2477]

similar benefits to an orgasm you're

[2479]

going to have a lower stress level

[2480]

you're going to feel immediately close

[2482]

to your partner you're going to get a

[2483]

rush of oxytocin which is going to make

[2486]

you feel happier more grounded

[2488]

throughout the day so that's a 20 second

[2490]

hug you extrapolate that to sex and

[2493]

things are going to be great

[2494]

so it's just physiological but I wonder

[2497]

there's probably metrics about how often

[2499]

you have sex how that correlates to

[2501]

successful relationships and so on well

[2503]

there are but it really has more to do

[2505]

it's sort of like remember I was talking

[2507]

about processing conflict and what

[2509]

matters is

[2510]

do people feel like it's been resolved

[2513]

do they feel like there's been a repair

[2514]

not necessarily how they go about doing

[2516]

it same with sex do does each partner

[2519]

feel sexually satisfied

[2522]

um so that could be once a month for one

[2524]

couple it could be five times a week for

[2526]

another couple it could be never for

[2529]

other couples truly

[2531]

um I mean so sex has a ton of benefits

[2533]

but its absence isn't necessarily

[2535]

detrimental I guess would be the

[2537]

qualifier depending on who you are and I

[2541]

know couples they use sex to as part of

[2543]

the conflict resolution process it's

[2545]

huge

[2549]

not just both all that's true

[2552]

um what do you think about infidelity

[2556]

um you know what's the cause of

[2559]

infidelity why do men and women cheat

[2561]

it's different for everybody but I I

[2564]

mean even earlier I was saying with

[2566]

adventurousness like if monogamy is

[2568]

something you're doing

[2569]

[2571]

I I I've seen in my own practice I've

[2573]

seen the entire range of couples who are

[2576]

open about having sexual relationships

[2579]

with other people

[2580]

um and fine with it couples who want to

[2582]

be fine with it but find out they're not

[2585]

um uh couples who aren't just couples

[2587]

couples with multiple people you know

[2589]

multiple romantic relationships

[2592]

um I've had couples where Affairs are

[2594]

are tolerated and not talked about

[2598]

um they're not enjoyed but they are not

[2601]

the type of betrayal that will destroy

[2602]

the relationship sort of a understanding

[2605]

and keep it out of my face and then also

[2608]

we won't talk about it so in the fair

[2610]

that happened without getting permission

[2612]

first and as long as you don't talk

[2614]

about it it's not going to do a damage

[2616]

to the relationship right but we can't

[2618]

even talk about it like that right so

[2620]

nobody's going to admit that the fair is

[2623]

happening

[2625]

um there can't be any evidence of it

[2627]

it's sort of a just look the other way

[2629]

type of a situation but uh the partner

[2632]

who is not having the affair right they

[2635]

typically know

[2637]

um they certainly know that their

[2638]

partner is capable of that

[2640]

um they just kind of know but they don't

[2643]

want it in their face it would become a

[2645]

problem if it was in their face

[2647]

[2648]

as long as certain needs are met and

[2650]

everything else is okay at home it's

[2653]

just one of those things where don't ask

[2655]

don't tell but that that's an

[2656]

interesting point because I've I had a

[2658]

bunch of arguments with people I tend to

[2660]

hang out with especially in the tech

[2662]

sector uh people who really value like

[2666]

honesty and radical honesty and I keep

[2668]

arguing with people about this because

[2670]

to me

[2671]

it's not that simple okay that that's an

[2674]

example right there uh that Honesty can

[2677]

be really destructive like honesty is

[2680]

also a really complicated thing to get

[2682]

to the bottom of because what is really

[2684]

honest yes and you know like how do I

[2686]

look in this dress like

[2688]

there's a million ways yeah a lot it can

[2692]

be accessible in my mind if I'm in a bad

[2694]

place or my partner and I am like if

[2696]

Taya and I haven't been connected lately

[2698]

my honesty of what I actually think

[2701]

about him would be horrifically damaging

[2704]

and completely unfounded also and but

[2707]

and it can change on a dime but that's

[2709]

also not actual honesty to the big

[2712]

picture of how you feel about him I have

[2715]

interacted with a few folks who talk

[2717]

about their previous sexual partners for

[2718]

example on the numbers of sexual

[2721]

partners they've had and they feel like

[2723]

that's

[2724]

that that kind of honesty is actually

[2727]

empowering enriching to the relationship

[2729]

because all they've experienced sexual

[2732]

experiences you've had in the past make

[2734]

you a better sexual partner better

[2736]

partner in in the present and to me from

[2738]

the culture I've come from that's like

[2741]

anti-romantic yep yep like I you kind of

[2745]

throw the past kind of away right you

[2747]

don't really talk about it it's kind of

[2749]

there in this amorphous shape but it's

[2752]

almost as if you've met together for the

[2755]

first time and this is a beautiful new

[2758]

thing like your creatures that have

[2760]

woken up from a long Slumber right

[2763]

you're starting Anew it's starting in

[2766]

new right so and then you want some

[2767]

mystery there right I think the mystery

[2770]

and like you have to figure that out

[2771]

about each other so I'm not exactly sure

[2773]

that honesty is always for everyone and

[2776]

then also is honesty harmful or helpful

[2778]

at certain points too yeah I.E so you're

[2781]

talking about sort of like disclosing

[2783]

prior sexual history I thought you were

[2785]

going to go to so if you've had an

[2787]

affair do you hold could you keep that

[2790]

under your head oh yeah that's a really

[2792]

tough question or are you obligated to

[2794]

disclose it it's a really it is a very

[2797]

tough question very tough well what do

[2801]

you think is the I have my own personal

[2802]

beliefs I also then like I have my

[2805]

therapeutic beliefs I think frankly

[2808]

and this is just me as a human being not

[2810]

Shannon the psychologist

[2812]

um I believe that if you have [ __ ] up

[2814]

and and I again I'm coming from a

[2817]

framework right now of monogamy

[2819]

um if you are committed to somebody you

[2821]

love and you have [ __ ] up you don't

[2824]

get to shed your guilt onto them

[2827]

you need to carry that burden it's not

[2830]

necessarily I think it's simplistic and

[2832]

unsophisticated to be like but then

[2835]

you're being dishonest I think it's

[2838]

actually selfish to unload it on

[2840]

somebody else and give them the trauma

[2842]

of imagining what we do know about

[2844]

infidelity is that it can create

[2847]

an actual post-traumatic stress like

[2850]

experience for the Betrayed partner

[2852]

where they are having intrusive thoughts

[2854]

about it

[2856]

um those are unwanted thoughts and it's

[2857]

uncontrolled it comes in it multiple

[2859]

times a day they'll have depressed mood

[2861]

they'll have nightmares about it their

[2863]

entire sense of security safety

[2865]

self-esteem gets shattered because of

[2869]

your actions

[2870]

I think it's uh kind of yeah moralistic

[2875]

and naive to think well they deserve to

[2877]

know the truth if you actually know the

[2879]

harm that that sort of betrayal does

[2882]

[2883]

especially if you truly mean to stop it

[2887]

right so if it is if it was a one and

[2889]

done or if it happened and you've

[2892]

stopped it and you do not intend to do

[2894]

it again frankly I think you live with

[2896]

that burden you live with that

[2898]

discomfort thank you for saying that

[2900]

because I I totally agree but it's it's

[2902]

like logically

[2905]

it's doesn't quite make sense to give

[2908]

that advice but psychologically makes

[2910]

complete sense because you really are

[2912]

destroying another person's mind uh

[2914]

their faith in in love in relationships

[2917]

their their their trust everything and

[2920]

then you're imprisoning them to be stuck

[2923]

with you for months or years if you're

[2925]

trying to work through it through that

[2926]

torture so you should be carrying that

[2929]

burden and working through it I think

[2930]

why why do you say that that's your

[2932]

personal opinion University or

[2933]

therapeutic like what well I think

[2935]

everybody has different values right so

[2937]

I think that's a value-based decision

[2940]

because to me the hierarchy is kindness

[2942]

and do no like do no further harm yeah

[2946]

um over that's in that case over truth

[2950]

right

[2952]

um whereas other people you know my

[2955]

husband for instance he is like truth

[2957]

above all else you don't get to decide

[2959]

what I know or you know you don't get to

[2962]

decide whether or not I can handle that

[2963]

knowledge so he would even see my

[2966]

determination of you know that I should

[2969]

carry the burden sort of arrogant like

[2971]

well why don't you let your partner

[2972]

decide whether or not they you know why

[2975]

do you get to choose I don't know I I

[2977]

think there's value to both arguments I

[2979]

absolutely see this point is I

[2981]

absolutely see his point and his I think

[2983]

is like a very humble sort of option

[2985]

[2986]

you don't get to choose what's better

[2989]

you you just need to give them the

[2990]

information and they can choose but I

[2993]

think I don't know I think it's kinder

[2995]

to hold I think it's going to cause your

[2997]

conscience more discomfort to hold it

[3000]

and I think there's sort of a cleansing

[3002]

we do when we share that information I

[3004]

think in real life most people disclose

[3006]

it because they can't stand the secret

[3008]

anymore themselves that to me is a

[3011]

selfish act I have a unemployment

[3013]

applications and so on and just with

[3015]

friends would ask people what do you

[3018]

care more about truth or loyalty just to

[3021]

get to see how they think about those

[3023]

different questions

[3024]

and uh yeah the

[3027]

I was surprised how much variance there

[3030]

is on that and also conceptually I bet

[3033]

I conceptually I don't think we actually

[3035]

know where we stand until we're faced

[3037]

with a situation like that yeah I think

[3039]

people a lot of people especially when

[3041]

they're younger say especially if

[3043]

they're kind of intellectual they'll say

[3045]

truth Above All Else

[3048]

a second all right you're exactly right

[3049]

all right

[3053]

until you get to hear a truth that truly

[3056]

breaks you truly hurts you or causes

[3058]

suffering to you and then you realize or

[3061]

a truth you give to somebody else will

[3063]

cause them suffering right and they get

[3065]

to see that suffering destroy their life

[3068]

and maybe your relationship and so on

[3070]

and then you're like oh yeah like should

[3071]

I sit my dad down right now and be like

[3073]

Dad your dementia like you have dementia

[3075]

again today I'm going to tell you Dad

[3077]

you're not making sense no we're good

[3079]

it's not going to be discussed we're

[3081]

going to make them comfortable and I

[3082]

mean yeah I think it truth can be a

[3085]

little bit of a platitude Sometimes some

[3086]

of those complexities are all the things

[3088]

involved in in the challenges of what

[3091]

makes a relationship work right uh what

[3094]

do you think about open relationships in

[3096]

general

[3097]

my world view is such that I see the

[3099]

beauty and value in monogamous

[3101]

relationships just for me but I don't

[3103]

I'm also open to

[3105]

the possibility of what worked for other

[3107]

people have you done any kind of work

[3109]

with the people in open relationships as

[3112]

clients or research as clients oh yeah

[3113]

yeah

[3115]

is there some interesting differences in

[3116]

between uh open relationships and

[3119]

monogamous relationships you know I

[3121]

think that may have been actually what

[3123]

was behind my question about

[3125]

um the satisfaction with them being on

[3127]

the extremes my hypothesis essentially

[3129]

was is it because they if you are really

[3132]

all and you've worked out some of the

[3134]

Kinks I think I've seen

[3137]

[3138]

the couples who are trying it out like

[3141]

for the first time it tends to get a

[3143]

little Haywire there's some excitement

[3145]

in the beginning everybody's really

[3147]

excited about it

[3148]

um I think the philosophy makes sense to

[3150]

a lot of people uh the science of it

[3153]

makes sense to a lot of people and but

[3156]

we have been raised in a society that is

[3158]

pretty monogamous so there isn't a lot

[3161]

of scaffolding around it

[3163]

um and and there's a lot of inner

[3165]

conflict I think for people to go away

[3166]

from the values that they've been taught

[3168]

since they were kids

[3169]

um and so jealousy arises a lot and uh

[3173]

and also I it's very difficult to be I

[3176]

think as truthful and direct as you need

[3178]

to be which you're describing in these

[3181]

polyamorous situations where everybody

[3183]

is laid out on the table

[3186]

um so I think that's something that may

[3187]

be practiced in my own work with clients

[3190]

I've just noticed that um the the

[3194]

Partners who are

[3196]

happier in these situations who I've

[3198]

worked with they are more experienced at

[3201]

[3202]

yeah they seem to have it down

[3205]

you testified in the Johnny Depp Amber

[3208]

Heard trial uh based on your role as a

[3210]

clinical and forensic psychologist it

[3212]

was watched by I don't know how many

[3214]

people maybe tens maybe hundreds of

[3216]

millions of people what was that

[3217]

experience like thank God I didn't know

[3219]

that at the time

[3221]

um were you scared

[3222]

oh yeah given the size of the platform

[3225]

how many people are watching and not

[3227]

scared typically isn't the word when I

[3229]

testify I'm always

[3230]

[3231]

excited and a little trepidatious before

[3234]

I testify

[3236]

um because the stakes are so high for

[3237]

everybody's life in that room

[3240]

um this was different I I anxiety isn't

[3245]

usually my brand

[3246]

um and I just skipped anxiety that

[3249]

Maureen went straight to Terror and he

[3251]

was mad I was mad at the legal it was

[3253]

funny like I was having all these strong

[3255]

emotions I couldn't find my bobby pins I

[3257]

almost started crying because I couldn't

[3259]

find them uh I was pretty unhinged that

[3262]

morning and in a way that was really

[3264]

unfamiliar to me

[3266]

um and it was right when I cried because

[3268]

I couldn't find my bobby pins that I

[3270]

realized I needed to get a grip and that

[3273]

I was a professional and that my hair

[3274]

didn't matter even though it ended up

[3276]

mattering people noticed that it was

[3277]

crazy

[3279]

um but I got a grip and I went in and I

[3282]

just did my job

[3284]

so the terror in the end helped you

[3286]

focus and do your job well I think it

[3289]

does and it's a little scary though

[3291]

because I know what fear does

[3293]

cognitively and there is a sweet spot

[3295]

where you want some stress and then you

[3299]

can be really acutely focused and

[3301]

attuned but then if you go over this

[3304]

threshold you get sort of that frontal

[3307]

lobe shutdown where you're not thinking

[3309]

clearly and everybody knows that

[3310]

experience from taking a really

[3311]

stressful test at some point like in

[3313]

high school and then they're going over

[3315]

the answers with the teacher in class

[3316]

later and they're like how did I miss

[3318]

that question I know that they you're

[3320]

just in a different state that's when

[3322]

you have too much stress I think this

[3325]

day I actually was bordering on too much

[3327]

stress if not clearly in that threshold

[3329]

but um

[3331]

once you're sitting there for a little

[3333]

bit and you're asked the questions you

[3335]

can kind of go into a routine of just

[3337]

wanting to talk about your work

[3339]

so what is the work the job of a

[3343]

forensic psychologist in that context

[3346]

in the depth herd trial I was

[3350]

serving as an expert witness based on a

[3354]

psychological evaluation of one of the

[3355]

parties so forensic psychologists can

[3358]

serve the court or in legal matters in a

[3362]

number of ways they can act as a

[3363]

confidential consultant for an attorney

[3365]

on a case

[3367]

or they can even assist with jury

[3370]

selection they might testify without

[3372]

doing an evaluation if they're just

[3373]

coming to testify about sort of a

[3376]

subject matter

[3377]

and then they wouldn't be answering

[3379]

specific questions to either the parties

[3381]

but just talking more hypothetically

[3383]

about an a field area in this case

[3386]

because I was ordered to conduct an

[3389]

evaluation

[3390]

I evaluated one of the parties and then

[3393]

you provide a report to the court with

[3396]

your findings and then you testify as to

[3400]

what your findings were but from my

[3402]

perspective just watching you seem to

[3404]

have held it together really well so

[3406]

what do you attribute that to so you

[3408]

said like it calmed down after you were

[3410]

able to ask the question so to me if I

[3413]

were just to put myself in your place

[3417]

it seems like the internet and the world

[3420]

would be very nitpicky about individual

[3422]

words you're speaking from a place

[3426]

of um a scientific rigor so you have to

[3430]

be very precise with the awarding

[3432]

precise I would feel like so much

[3434]

pressure about each single word I choose

[3437]

did you feel that pressure that you had

[3438]

to be extremely precise with the words

[3441]

always the pressure is so high going in

[3445]

to testifying I think that's where I

[3447]

feel the most pressure is preparing and

[3450]

literally the moment until I start

[3452]

having to answer and then I don't even

[3455]

have the luxury of thinking about myself

[3458]

because it is so important that that

[3461]

answer be

[3463]

clarified and understandable to the

[3466]

court that that becomes my focus and

[3468]

that's the godsend is that I can stop

[3471]

thinking about how scary it all is

[3473]

because I need to pay attention to

[3475]

explaining something

[3477]

so I if it's okay I would love to talk

[3479]

to you about the the personality

[3481]

assessment test because I think it's

[3483]

actually super fascinating uh but

[3484]

personality assessment inventory or the

[3486]

mmpi too you're probably referring to

[3488]

the mmpi too which is one I talked a lot

[3490]

about mmpi too yeah so maybe can you

[3493]

explain the mmpi to seems fascinating it

[3497]

is it has like its output the results

[3500]

has some basic skills as code types and

[3503]

just reading through the different

[3504]

complex it's the thing of beauty because

[3507]

the human mind is really complicated

[3509]

even you know depression schizophrenia

[3513]

uh bipolar disorder like all of these

[3516]

things are really complicated there's

[3518]

like we many of them we don't understand

[3520]

well this seems to be a huge amount of

[3523]

variance and yet you have to be able to

[3526]

stitch together a bunch of

[3527]

characteristics that give you intuition

[3529]

about

[3530]

the unique aspects of each person you

[3534]

want to be able to have tests that get

[3536]

you closer to identifying The Peculiar

[3539]

flaws or uh beauties of a particular

[3543]

mind so this seems to do a good job just

[3546]

reading through the different

[3546]

descriptions of the code testify that

[3549]

was the best description I don't know

[3552]

I'm being poetic I apologize beautiful

[3554]

description you have to be in part

[3556]

poetic about the human mind it's not

[3557]

it's not math it's it's psychology okay

[3560]

so what is the mmpi to like what what

[3563]

what are we talking about here like uh

[3566]

it's a questionnaire

[3568]

yes that's a great start so it it is a

[3572]

questionnaire uh yet 567 yes no

[3574]

questions

[3576]

I'm going to tell you what's most

[3577]

beautiful about this test so they used

[3579]

an empirical keying method to develop it

[3582]

what that means is that they didn't have

[3585]

a bunch of psychologists get together

[3587]

and say let's ask them

[3590]

um let's make sure that we identify

[3592]

people who have somatic complaints or

[3594]

physical complaints by asking them

[3596]

questions about like numbness in their

[3599]

hands nothing like that what they did

[3601]

instead was they threw you know like

[3603]

take a thousand questions at a group of

[3605]

people who they know at a certain mental

[3607]

illness and a group of people who didn't

[3608]

have that mental illness and then they

[3610]

looked for patterns in what the people

[3614]

with the mental illness

[3616]

endorsed as yes and no of those random

[3620]

questions so it would be for instance

[3622]

there's a bronze light fixture right

[3624]

there one of the questions out of the

[3626]

Thousand might be I like light fixtures

[3629]

that are bronze true or false and they

[3632]

looked for correlations in the way

[3634]

people would answer to these completely

[3636]

innocuous just boring questions so there

[3640]

was no real way that a test taker could

[3644]

foresee the point of answering

[3647]

and so because they can't foresee it's

[3650]

very difficult to cheat to get to a

[3652]

conclusion very difficult and not only

[3654]

that but you can imagine using that

[3656]

approach you can then look for patterns

[3660]

for almost any type of

[3663]

response style for any type of

[3665]

Personality trait any type of mental

[3667]

illness you just get a comparison group

[3669]

and then a group who's using that

[3671]

specific strategy or has that specific

[3674]

mental illness or has that personality

[3676]

trait

[3677]

um and you just look for patterns

[3680]

and there's a scale output of different

[3684]

kinds

[3685]

so types yep so we've got you've got

[3689]

validity scales and those are just

[3692]

fascinating and often one of the most

[3694]

useful parts of this test in forensic

[3697]

contexts because they show you how a

[3699]

person is approaching the test how

[3703]

they're answering questions about

[3704]

themselves so for instance you can see

[3706]

if they are tired you can see if they're

[3710]

kind of respect responding randomly you

[3712]

can see if they are in an

[3714]

unsophisticated manner trying to make

[3716]

themselves look perfect but not very

[3718]

nuanced you can see if they may be

[3721]

deceiving themselves and truly believe

[3723]

that they are perfect whereas others

[3726]

don't see it that way you can see if

[3728]

they're exaggerating you can see if

[3729]

they're exaggerating because they're

[3731]

truly

[3732]

um it's a cry for help they are in

[3734]

extreme distress but they feel as though

[3736]

they need to really punctuate it to get

[3738]

people to notice or you can see if

[3740]

they're exaggerating in a way that is

[3742]

um you know driven for a specific

[3745]

outcome or gain it's just fascinating

[3748]

and it's the most well-developed

[3750]

assessment we have for a person's

[3754]

approach to

[3756]

answering questions about themselves so

[3758]

it gives you the context of how honest

[3760]

they're being the state of the person is

[3762]

their answer to them yeah yeah their

[3764]

honesty their how forthcoming they're

[3766]

being and how accurate they're being and

[3768]

then the the result of the

[3769]

classification based on the test is are

[3772]

these code types right well so you have

[3774]

these clinical skills as well you have

[3776]

10 clinical skills that look for

[3778]

different

[3779]

um kind of primary Clinical Pathology

[3782]

issues this test doesn't tell you

[3784]

anything good about yourself at best it

[3787]

just tells you that you're not

[3788]

responding in a way that is uh dishonest

[3791]

and that you are uh kind not hugely

[3795]

problematic but there's you know it's

[3797]

not looking for strength so you have

[3798]

these 10 clinical scales that look for

[3800]

variations above the mean of the

[3803]

population

[3805]

um in certain areas anywhere from you

[3807]

know depressive symptoms manic symptoms

[3809]

physical complaints anxiety nervousness

[3813]

aggression social engagement whole scope

[3816]

of human experience and then there are

[3819]

much more nuanced scales from those so

[3822]

little sub scales and then the real

[3825]

power though of the mmpi2 is in as you

[3828]

said these code types and these code

[3830]

types are additional patterns that have

[3833]

been detected that really can be more

[3837]

defining of a personality so you look

[3839]

for Peaks there can be either two

[3841]

extreme Peaks or three typically that

[3844]

make a code type and those Peaks are

[3847]

higher scores on these personality

[3850]

traits and specific code types can give

[3852]

you a very nuanced picture of a person's

[3855]

General approach to life and their

[3857]

personal relationships just their

[3859]

personality so you can build on top of

[3862]

those code types and understanding yeah

[3864]

how that person is going to deal with

[3866]

different kinds of situations and then

[3867]

there's by the way a lot of code types

[3869]

there are a lot of questions pretty

[3871]

interesting it is

[3873]

I was I wanted to see which one I would

[3876]

I have given it to some people in my

[3878]

life it's just phenomenal how hard is it

[3880]

on your side of the table to give the

[3882]

test oh it's easy you just Proctor you

[3885]

just make sure that somebody there's no

[3886]

distraction that they're well rested

[3888]

they are sitting there and they can just

[3890]

take it in front of you so I guess the

[3892]

question is because the questions are

[3894]

well designed in that it's hard to mess

[3896]

with them you just give the it's very

[3898]

hard to beat it you just hand it to them

[3901]

and it's yes and no it's yes and no

[3904]

okay but I should also add to this that

[3909]

this test as much as I love it and um it

[3912]

is the most researched and widely used

[3913]

personality assessment in the world

[3916]

[3917]

it is not in and of itself definitive so

[3920]

you use it like you already have sort of

[3923]

a hypothesis and you use this for

[3925]

clarification okay

[3927]

um and it has a ton of value for showing

[3930]

somebody's response or their approach

[3933]

um how forthcoming they're being but

[3935]

other than that you really need to

[3937]

consider it as a piece of the puzzle you

[3939]

had said stitched together earlier and

[3940]

that was just one of those points you

[3942]

made that was perfect for describing

[3945]

this

[3946]

there's probably no one perfect test

[3948]

right for personality no

[3951]

I wonder especially with advancements of

[3955]

um AI

[3956]

there could be more

[3958]

more and more sophisticated ways of

[3961]

measuring of collecting data about your

[3963]

behavior absolutely there could be and

[3965]

being able to measure some kind of more

[3967]

productive kind of

[3968]

especially not in a forensic context but

[3970]

more in uh trying to figure out like how

[3974]

to improve your lifestyle improve your

[3975]

relationships all that kind of stuff so

[3978]

the the results of the test with um

[3981]

would then be heard if you can speak to

[3984]

the public stuff

[3988]

he said that the results of misheard's

[3991]

evaluation supported two diagnoses

[3993]

borderline personality disorder and

[3996]

hysterionic personality disorder

[3999]

can you speak to each one of those what

[4002]

are they what are the basic

[4003]

characteristics of borderline

[4005]

personality disorder sure well so right

[4009]

now are the DSM-5 which is sort of the

[4012]

Bible for mental disorders it's what we

[4014]

go to our diagnostic manual it

[4017]

classifies personality disorders

[4018]

according to clusters

[4020]

and cluster B is one that involves the

[4024]

emotionally erratic interpersonally

[4027]

erratic emotional disorders and those

[4030]

include histrionic personality disorder

[4032]

borderline personality disorder uh

[4035]

narcissistic personality disorder and

[4037]

anti-social personality disorder

[4040]

eventually there's been some research on

[4042]

this and a lot of support for us

[4045]

eventually moving into a more Spectrum

[4047]

type approach to considering personality

[4050]

disorders where you'd essentially be

[4053]

looking at dysfunction in different

[4055]

domains of somebody's functioning that

[4057]

has persisted over time and again the

[4060]

really important part is this it seems

[4062]

to be a stable trait part of their

[4065]

personality that person you know it's in

[4067]

their interpersonal relationships it's

[4069]

in how they handle their own life their

[4071]

own functioning their mood and it's not

[4074]

just situation based it seems to be all

[4076]

areas

[4077]

um I don't love

[4079]

the title histrionic personality

[4082]

disorder I think its history is um

[4085]

it's pretty controversial and there's

[4087]

some misogyny in it but that all being

[4091]

said as a servant to the court and

[4094]

somebody who is there to just provide

[4096]

the science as it exists today

[4098]

my job is to relay and in this specific

[4101]

case I was ordered to provide my

[4103]

diagnostic Impressions

[4105]

um a diagnosis and I don't get to decide

[4108]

which diagnosis uh whether I like a

[4110]

certain diagnosis or not ultimately if

[4113]

the criteria are met that diagnosis is

[4116]

given so as we have it right now with

[4119]

the current personality disorder

[4120]

categories histrionic personality

[4122]

disorder is probably the most

[4123]

controversial some people believe that

[4125]

it is narcissistic personality disorder

[4129]

light so sort of a less obvious less

[4134]

malicious version of narcissistic

[4137]

personality disorder

[4139]

and I think that will probably get

[4142]

sussed out if we do move to a more

[4144]

Spectrum based approach because then you

[4145]

would be describing sort of a

[4147]

personality disorder and then you would

[4148]

add the traits to it so you know with

[4151]

issues and interpersonal functioning and

[4154]

and Etc so you could be a little bit

[4155]

[4156]

specific rather than have to just put

[4159]

somebody in a category so that's where

[4161]

things are moving you're saying that's

[4163]

where things are moving from a cluster's

[4165]

based view of NPD anti-social

[4167]

personality disorder to more of a

[4170]

spectrum with personality dysfunction

[4172]

then you you list the traits that are

[4174]

there and I think that'll be more

[4176]

accurate um especially there's so much

[4178]

overlap between these personality

[4180]

disorders right now especially cluster B

[4182]

it is not uncommon for people to have

[4184]

two or three personality disorders to

[4187]

meet criteria for two or three at the

[4189]

same time so speaking about borderline

[4192]

personality disorder and histrionic

[4194]

personality disorder

[4196]

borderline personality disorder can best

[4198]

be thought of as a disorder of

[4201]

instability and impulsiveness emotional

[4204]

instability instability in a person's

[4207]

self-identity sense of self instability

[4210]

in a person's relationships and then

[4213]

underlying all of this is an intense

[4215]

fear of Abandonment histrionic

[4218]

personality just order

[4219]

is more of a disorder of emotionality

[4224]

Dramatics and attention seeking

[4227]

this you know histrionic disorder

[4229]

typically is known for The Dramatics and

[4234]

people who are observing or interacting

[4236]

with somebody with this disorder may

[4237]

even feel themselves almost kind of

[4239]

wanting to turn away there's a sense of

[4242]

play acting as the person is speaking or

[4244]

engaging with you

[4246]

something just feels a little bit

[4248]

disingenuous

[4250]

and a lot of attention seeking similar

[4252]

to borderline personality disorder you

[4254]

might see with histrionic personality

[4256]

disorder attempts to manipulate however

[4259]

the motivation with histrionic

[4260]

personality disorder is that attention

[4262]

whereas with borderline personality

[4264]

disorder the underlying motivation for

[4266]

almost everything is to avoid

[4267]

abandonment so you'll see frantic

[4270]

attempts to avoid abandonment frantic

[4273]

attempts to keep people close and those

[4276]

frantic attempts can be really harmful

[4278]

to the person and to others

[4280]

to the person themselves

[4283]

so the fear of Abandonment can

[4286]

result in the very thing you're afraid

[4288]

of right

[4290]

and and I there has been some research

[4292]

also to suggest that there that

[4295]

borderline personality disorder has

[4297]

different types as well

[4299]

[4300]

and I think this is really important

[4303]

because in my own work I have

[4305]

encountered many people with borderline

[4306]

personality disorder in my own life

[4308]

right

[4309]

[4310]

and there are different types right I

[4313]

I'm thinking specifically of a girl I

[4316]

really love who I've worked with for

[4317]

years who is so self-aware about this

[4320]

and endearing and uh she she owns her

[4325]

[ __ ] I can forgive almost anything if

[4328]

somebody just owns their [ __ ]

[4331]

um she is she might lose her temper she

[4334]

might lash out she can be erratic but

[4338]

she will come back and apologize own it

[4341]

and accept full responsibility and not

[4343]

only that but identify it and make

[4346]

changes

[4347]

she doesn't want to be harmful I adore

[4350]

that about her I think it's an admirable

[4352]

quality more of us could have

[4355]

um that's very different than

[4357]

when you think about it there are nine

[4359]

different symptoms and you only need

[4361]

five to meet criteria so depending on

[4363]

which symptoms you have you might be far

[4366]

more calculated conniving manipulative

[4370]

or you may just be more of the impulsive

[4372]

kind of messy emotionally erratic type

[4374]

and so there's some new research also

[4376]

coming out that's even suggested that

[4379]

among women

[4380]

those that score higher in some of these

[4383]

more calculated traits of the disorder

[4385]

may actually be it may be a certain

[4389]

presentation of female psychopathy

[4392]

yeah are are some of these personality

[4395]

disorders again probably impossible

[4397]

question to answer but

[4399]

how much of it is nature how much of it

[4401]

is nurture or how much of it is in the

[4405]

genetics and you just can't do much with

[4407]

uh maybe another question a different

[4410]

way to ask that is how much can you help

[4412]

that how how much can you become better

[4416]

that is a tough question so there's been

[4418]

a ton of change in the way we've thought

[4421]

about the etiology of these personality

[4424]

disorders specific to borderline

[4426]

personality disorder I think in general

[4429]

the view is that most people believe

[4432]

that it was associated with neglect or

[4435]

trauma and childhood

[4437]

while there is a correlation there

[4439]

there's a correlation between that and

[4441]

many mental health issues not just

[4443]

borderline personality disorder we also

[4446]

there is evidence to support a genetic

[4448]

basis for this personality disorder and

[4451]

there are people who have borderline

[4452]

personality disorders that report no

[4455]

childhood trauma or difficulty

[4458]

um and I've and I have seen I you know

[4461]

sometimes things just happen so

[4464]

I think it's a mix I think we need to

[4466]

think of it as biopsychosocial which is

[4468]

generally the answer to most things when

[4470]

you're talking about how a mental health

[4472]

issue comes to be

[4474]

um I certainly think that in most cases

[4479]

and here's just me speaking personally

[4481]

again I think in my own work in most

[4484]

cases what I see is that somebody may

[4487]

have some sort of predisposition then

[4490]

they go through certain life events and

[4492]

learn patterns of Behaving that may

[4495]

serve them well as a child in a

[4497]

dysfunctional situation but end up being

[4499]

very problematic later on or they just

[4502]

have enough hardship that that Gene

[4504]

whatever it was lying dormant that

[4506]

little borderline personality disorder

[4508]

Gene expresses itself and you'll see

[4510]

that with things like schizophrenia

[4511]

depression anxiety disorders there tend

[4515]

to be certain ages where you'll just see

[4516]

that expression happen

[4520]

all right for the record it got cold in

[4522]

here so we upgraded with a blanket

[4527]

you look cozy uh just as a question for

[4531]

me just observing the trial it was

[4534]

interesting

[4536]

that first of all is a really

[4538]

raw and honest exploration of

[4542]

intimate relationship between two people

[4544]

oh yeah it was interesting to watch I

[4546]

suppose I haven't watched that kind of

[4548]

thing

[4549]

it made me think about what makes for a

[4551]

good relationship

[4553]

all the all the many things we've

[4555]

already talked about in this

[4555]

conversation

[4557]

it was useful for that but also there

[4560]

was raw recordings of two humans

[4563]

interaction what do you think about that

[4566]

that there's recordings it's kind of

[4568]

interesting the act of recording your

[4570]

partner yeah and not not the ethics of

[4573]

that or so on but the fact that you have

[4575]

this data made me wonder like if I

[4577]

recorded myself how would I sound like

[4580]

when you record yourself no but here

[4582]

with microphones but when you're in

[4583]

private yeah you wonder

[4587]

like I had a a bit of a fight with a

[4591]

friend uh last week

[4594]

and I wondered which one of us was the

[4597]

[ __ ] I would love to hear the

[4599]

recording because we were a little bit I

[4601]

think we're a little bit rude to each

[4603]

other and I wonder how it went wrong I

[4606]

love that you asked yourself that

[4607]

question that's so useful we made up the

[4609]

next day and we I think both agreed to

[4611]

not ever talk about it but I want this

[4614]

to bury it deep yeah you know I record

[4617]

my couple sessions and one of the

[4620]

primary purposes of that is so that

[4622]

after if they start to get nasty with

[4625]

each other in the session I can stop it

[4628]

and I can say what was that right and

[4631]

most of the time that what you're

[4633]

describing is so useful because we don't

[4635]

see ourselves we have no idea that we

[4638]

just came off as critical we think we're

[4640]

being completely reasonable and

[4642]

thoughtful you know whenever somebody's

[4644]

sort of retelling an argument they got

[4646]

and they said and then you know I was

[4648]

just caring and just asked I mean why is

[4652]

there a reason you did you know

[4653]

something like that if they can actually

[4655]

see themselves they realize no their jaw

[4657]

was clenched their voice was raised they

[4659]

actually called a name sometimes they're

[4662]

shocked

[4663]

uh so just a quick just to linger on it

[4666]

the you labeled

[4669]

Amber Heard as a three six code Type

[4672]

going back to our discussion which can

[4674]

mean that quote she's heavily concerned

[4676]

with image prone to treating others with

[4678]

cruelty unable to admit responsibility

[4680]

for wrongdoing and prone to

[4683]

externalizing blame and then I also went

[4686]

into the the mmpi2 list three six

[4691]

includes anxiety tension rigidity fear

[4694]

of criticism

[4696]

suppress hostility merging and passive

[4698]

or episodic aggression

[4701]

suspiciousness egocentricity what else

[4704]

projection

[4705]

what can you say about that code that is

[4708]

not captured in the different

[4709]

personality disorders

[4712]

um what are we supposed to do that from

[4713]

a forensic psychology perspective and

[4715]

what what what are we supposed to do

[4717]

that in general forget the 3-6 in

[4719]

general these kinds of code types in

[4721]

that context in the context of a trial

[4723]

if I'm understanding you correctly it's

[4725]

sort of what's the point of these code

[4727]

types yeah

[4728]

um thank you for asking the question

[4729]

better but

[4731]

I don't know what I'm doing I just I

[4734]

just actually honestly really find mmpi

[4737]

too fast I love that you do yeah I love

[4739]

that you get it because I just to me

[4742]

it's such a uh it's almost unbelievable

[4745]

that humans created it

[4747]

um but I think that goes back to that

[4748]

empirical key method of creating

[4750]

something that enabled it to be as

[4753]

robust as it is and something that is

[4756]

very difficult to beat if not impossible

[4759]

um but the code types really so it

[4763]

depends on in any forensic case what

[4766]

really matters is the legal psycho legal

[4769]

questions so what is the legal question

[4771]

and then what is the psychologist's

[4774]

responsibility in assisting with

[4775]

whatever question they're being asked

[4777]

and there are some questions we can't

[4778]

answer some that we can

[4780]

um you don't always need to provide a

[4782]

diagnosis when you're asked to provide a

[4785]

report it depends on the jurisdiction it

[4787]

depends on the statute some

[4788]

jurisdictions actually require a

[4790]

diagnosis in this case I was asked to

[4792]

provide a diagnosis so when I'm

[4794]

considering a diagnosis you're

[4797]

integrating multiple different sources

[4799]

of information you're integrating and

[4801]

examining self-report you are adding

[4805]

collateral data usually I wasn't able to

[4808]

obtain collateral interviews in this

[4810]

case and that was the decision of the

[4813]

Court they said no collateral interviews

[4815]

but typically that would be something

[4818]

that you would add you're looking at

[4820]

records ideally from birth up until the

[4822]

day that the alleged injury occurred and

[4826]

I'm speaking now specifically to a

[4828]

personal injury evaluation or something

[4830]

where somebody is claiming that they

[4831]

were harmed psychologically

[4834]

um but you want as many records as

[4835]

possible to show how a person functioned

[4837]

before that event occurred and how they

[4840]

functioned after and you want it to show

[4843]

Financial functioning physical

[4844]

functioning academic functioning

[4846]

basically where is there evidence that

[4849]

something in their life changed

[4851]

um where is there evidence that harm

[4853]

occurred other than from what they're

[4855]

telling you and uh in addition to all of

[4859]

those records that you're reviewing in

[4861]

addition to their self-report then

[4863]

you're also going to give some of these

[4865]

tests like the mmpi so the code types

[4868]

are really that that strength of the

[4871]

mmpi2 it gives you really nuanced

[4873]

information about a person's personality

[4875]

now again you're not going to use the

[4877]

mmpi2 or any other test by itself to

[4881]

diagnose someone or you know decide that

[4884]

the person is telling the truth not

[4885]

telling the truth it is just another

[4887]

piece of data and when it's working the

[4891]

way it's supposed to It lines up really

[4893]

nicely with all of the other data you're

[4896]

getting including what you've observed

[4898]

from the person during your interview

[4899]

with them the information they're giving

[4901]

you or inconsistencies with information

[4903]

they're giving you the consistency or

[4906]

inconsistency of their self-report from

[4908]

the records what the records themselves

[4911]

say etc etc so it's adding it's helping

[4914]

you clarify and clarify and clarify the

[4916]

picture yeah just dialing it down more

[4918]

and more you're just making sure that it

[4920]

is as accurate as possible

[4922]

okay so given how huge this trial was

[4925]

given how eloquent you were you were I

[4928]

know you don't think of it that way but

[4930]

from a public perspective you were like

[4932]

the star

[4934]

because of how well you've been it's I

[4936]

mean you know uh I'm pretty sure

[4938]

Camille's the star Camille is also

[4941]

incredible I've got a chance to interact

[4942]

with her she's somebody that uh

[4946]

really inspires me by how good she is at

[4949]

her job how much she loves her job and

[4951]

how much the fame the money whatever has

[4954]

not affected the basic core Integrity of

[4957]

who she is as a human being so she's

[4961]

also uh she's also incredible okay uh

[4964]

how what's the what's the takeaway for

[4966]

you personally from The Trial uh how's

[4968]

it made you a better person how is it

[4971]

changing changed or solidified who you

[4974]

are as a psychologist as a forensic

[4978]

psychologist clinical psychologist and

[4979]

so on

[4981]

wow uh I mean a lot happened in my life

[4985]

around that trial leading up to the

[4987]

trial after the trial

[4989]

[4990]

so let's tackle forensic psychologists

[4993]

first sure okay so in terms of forensic

[4996]

psychology

[4997]

um I am grateful to that trial for

[5000]

really strengthening my abilities

[5002]

um these Stakes were so high that I took

[5006]

you know I was retained about two years

[5009]

prior to the trial so I really delved

[5013]

deep into the academic side of forensic

[5016]

psychology and making sure that

[5019]

um I was adhering as closely as possible

[5022]

to standard practices best practice

[5024]

recommendations for this specific type

[5026]

of an examination it was intellectually

[5030]

awesome and challenging I feel like my

[5032]

brain was on fire for a full year

[5034]

leading up to the trial and that can be

[5037]

really really fun it was just

[5039]

challenging but I am really proud of the

[5041]

work I did I think the stakes were

[5043]

really high it's serious work it's

[5046]

important that it's done well and

[5049]

accurately and

[5051]

I felt really good about it so I have

[5053]

some of those lessons carried through to

[5054]

your practice now to both research and

[5057]

uh some of the things you're doing in

[5060]

terms of helping couples

[5061]

uh no I mean I just

[5064]

you know my practice hasn't changed that

[5066]

much uh this was more uh just something

[5071]

that was more it demanded so much more

[5073]

of my time than my typical forensic work

[5075]

does and personal injury cases are in

[5078]

cases where there is an allegation of

[5080]

trauma or psychological harm tend to be

[5082]

super labor intensive this given um the

[5086]

magnitude and how long it had been going

[5088]

on in the back and forth required a ton

[5090]

of work before the trial as well so it

[5093]

pulled me away from the practice I think

[5094]

it's been nice to go back a bit if okay

[5098]

so now personally

[5100]

um I've learned some things I've learned

[5102]

that I need to slow down a little bit

[5105]

so this took a lot from you it took a

[5108]

lot but it was really the culmination I

[5110]

feel like there are these hoops we jump

[5112]

through again and again you know

[5114]

academic challenges that we continue to

[5118]

meet and then there's a next one and a

[5120]

next one and a next one and in the

[5122]

beginning like when you're getting into

[5124]

college or applying to grad schools you

[5127]

don't really realize this is going to be

[5129]

a never-ending thing especially if I

[5131]

continue with research or forensic work

[5133]

I love it because it is so academic you

[5135]

know you're writing these 75-page

[5137]

reports and with citations and

[5141]

um you have to be accurate it feels like

[5143]

I'm doing giant board exams again and

[5147]

again and again

[5149]

um it never ends but that feeling I

[5153]

think you and I were talking about how

[5154]

it's fun to doubt yourself because it

[5156]

pushes you to do better work

[5159]

um but so if you keep having high stakes

[5161]

you're going to work all the time work

[5164]

yourself in the ground constantly be

[5166]

thinking I'm about oh this question I'm

[5168]

not sure if I fully know the answer and

[5170]

all the research behind that so I should

[5172]

go there

[5173]

and again super fun

[5176]

but

[5177]

I don't just do forensic psychology all

[5180]

day I also have own a clinic I provide

[5185]

therapy I've been providing therapy for

[5187]

15 years so what happens is you have

[5190]

clients who maybe you've stopped seeing

[5192]

but when they have a crisis in their

[5194]

lives they reach out to you again even

[5195]

if it's seven years later so you've

[5198]

accumulated hundreds of clients who at

[5201]

any given time are going to reach out

[5203]

when they're in crisis whether or not

[5205]

you're working on a federal case or in

[5208]

Virginia for this and

[5210]

that is never going to be something easy

[5213]

to Grapple with because I feel that I am

[5216]

letting somebody down I know I am

[5218]

because these are people I genuinely

[5220]

care about and they care about me and

[5221]

they trust me

[5222]

and I want to be able to be there for

[5225]

them I know that it's disappointing if I

[5227]

can't be and it's also very difficult

[5230]

to separate out the Professional Therapy

[5233]

relationship from loving someone who

[5236]

you've seen through some of the most

[5238]

difficult parts of their lives and I can

[5241]

explain that to people all day long but

[5243]

it doesn't necessarily mean that it's

[5245]

going to be easy for someone to accept

[5247]

when I can't talk to them

[5249]

and they just found out you know their

[5250]

husband was leading a double life or you

[5253]

know their sister just died and I can't

[5255]

even get on a call because I'm getting

[5257]

maybe 15 messages like that a day

[5260]

and have to testify and have to run my

[5264]

practice

[5266]

um so I think that was why I need to

[5269]

slow down this case I was doing all of

[5271]

that

[5273]

and then like the academic load or the

[5276]

work involved was just tremendous

[5279]

um and some stuff happened like my dad

[5281]

he started having his cognitive decline

[5283]

I got a medical diagnosis that is stress

[5286]

induced

[5287]

um I really thought I was getting away

[5289]

with it I I really believed that people

[5291]

who talk like a lot about self-care were

[5293]

kind of full of [ __ ] and just didn't

[5296]

know how to push themselves I still

[5298]

believe in pushing ourselves

[5300]

but I think I

[5302]

[5303]

kind of traversed into an area and

[5305]

without realizing it where I was no

[5307]

longer pushing myself to challenge

[5309]

myself or see what I was capable of I

[5311]

was almost pushing myself like as a

[5314]

necessity because I didn't know what

[5316]

else to do anymore

[5317]

just an obligation

[5319]

um it wasn't even I wasn't pushing

[5322]

myself to do

[5323]

the debt herd case reminded me of that

[5325]

feeling of pushing myself to do

[5327]

something I wasn't sure I was capable of

[5328]

and overcoming that challenge that was

[5331]

rewarding but when you're piling that on

[5334]

with like running a business and all

[5335]

these other things and trying to be

[5337]

perfect at all of them

[5339]

um that just starts to become like a

[5341]

feeling of necessity and it's not

[5343]

healthy

[5344]

that said you somehow managed to hold it

[5347]

all together to put forward a mask for

[5350]

performance and like you said still take

[5352]

care of all these clients because you're

[5355]

the most important person in their lives

[5356]

for many of them

[5359]

um is there is there a secret to that

[5361]

was there any hacks

[5363]

is there uh I don't get no and honestly

[5368]

I it's not 100 it's not how I

[5372]

it's a work in progress right I I don't

[5375]

have an answer for

[5377]

I wouldn't want my life to be any other

[5379]

way I you know I wouldn't have had the

[5382]

opportunity to work on this case if I

[5384]

hadn't established my practice and had

[5386]

Outreach and um

[5389]

so I I can't figure out like which piece

[5392]

you take it out without it all crumbling

[5393]

yeah but I would love to have a little

[5395]

more down time so it all kind of works

[5397]

together and there's

[5399]

passion is the fuel that

[5401]

uh that's behind all of it probably

[5403]

that's probably the reason you haven't

[5405]

lost your mind quite yet maybe yeah

[5408]

maybe unless I mean it depends who you

[5411]

ask what about the stress of just being

[5415]

in the public eye has that been

[5417]

difficult for you

[5418]

that's a lovely question thank you for

[5420]

asking it because I'm

[5422]

it is nice to talk to you about this

[5424]

because I feel like you probably

[5425]

understand it a little bit

[5428]

um that was something I was absolutely

[5430]

unprepared for uh like I said I had no

[5433]

idea how many people were watching when

[5434]

I testified I

[5437]

I had no idea and I got off the stand I

[5441]

kind of staggered to the back room and

[5444]

truly thought about lying down on the

[5446]

floor because I was so exhausted and uh

[5450]

you know I'd been up studying on my

[5452]

stuff terrified that I was gonna forget

[5454]

some statistic about the mmpi too it's

[5457]

gonna be so great it's great for me it's

[5459]

gonna be great for people to hear this

[5460]

that you're human you're too flaws

[5465]

that you're that's extremely stressful

[5467]

for many many hours I wondered how you

[5469]

could sit there for so many hours and

[5471]

stay so focused and listen so well it's

[5474]

so difficult well I mean I could talk

[5475]

about that too at the moment I came to

[5478]

almost like came back to my body and

[5479]

realized where I was and just wanted it

[5481]

to stop and felt like I was burning

[5483]

alive I just was thinking I don't want

[5485]

to do this anymore I don't want to do

[5487]

this anymore is this going to stop and

[5489]

then another question came and I just

[5490]

had to get back to it uh but uh so after

[5494]

I testified the first time I went in

[5496]

that back room I I might have laid down

[5498]

on the ground it's kind of a blur I mean

[5500]

I might have I do remember that Wayne

[5502]

Dennison uh one of the senior managing

[5505]

Partners at Brown redneck who is a

[5506]

phenomenal guy and absolutely brilliant

[5509]

I will be indebted in for life because

[5511]

um I trusted him I trusted him and that

[5514]

made all the difference in probably how

[5516]

I testified but he came in the back and

[5518]

he was looking at his phone and he said

[5520]

you're on the cover of time something on

[5522]

you know like Apple news

[5524]

and I thought I mean I really I thought

[5527]

he was messing with me

[5529]

um I thought it was it was his joke way

[5530]

of saying like I did great

[5532]

you've worked with uh veterans

[5536]

um what is PTSD in that context what

[5540]

what's the landscape of psychological

[5542]

sufferings that

[5543]

veteran soldiers go through

[5551]

[5552]

well if we're talking about combat

[5554]

exposure

[5555]

you're seeing

[5558]

things you're not meant to see you're

[5560]

seeing the worst of humanity people

[5562]

harming other people it's not natural

[5564]

for

[5566]

um others to intend to harm us it's not

[5569]

natural for us to harm others and

[5573]

this dehumanization can occur that's so

[5576]

troubling and disturbing that people

[5577]

have a hard time living with it later or

[5580]

they just feel this ongoing anger

[5584]

[5586]

yeah it's it depends it depends on the

[5588]

trauma they're exposed to it depends on

[5590]

you know whether their Convoy was

[5593]

ambushed by weapons that were purchased

[5596]

from money that was given to this

[5598]

Village from the US government

[5600]

um it depends on whether

[5603]

[5604]

they did something that they have a hard

[5607]

time reconciling outside of War now that

[5609]

they're back home in Civilization

[5612]

um depends on whether they lost a lot of

[5615]

their comrades and feel that guilt of

[5617]

being a Survivor and again not everybody

[5620]

develops PTSD it really it's a mental

[5623]

disorder it's serious we talk so much

[5626]

about trauma and PTSD gets thrown around

[5629]

lightly when actually it's very

[5631]

difficult to meet the full criteria for

[5633]

that diagnosis and many people

[5636]

experience severe trauma in their lives

[5638]

and only about 14 percent are likely to

[5642]

actually develop PTSD it's an exception

[5644]

not the norm

[5645]

traumatic stress is absolutely normal

[5648]

after something traumatic happens you'll

[5651]

likely have nightmares you'll likely

[5652]

have anxiety you'll feel depressed

[5655]

because you're a human being and

[5656]

something abnormal happened but PTSD is

[5659]

a longer standing condition that is

[5665]

significantly impairing in a person's

[5668]

life and I think we've lost that in some

[5670]

of the sort of narrative in society it

[5672]

just everybody has PTSD but no you can

[5676]

have traumatic stress you can be

[5677]

distressed you can be affected by trauma

[5679]

and not have that particular diagnosis

[5681]

PTSD

[5683]

significantly impairs people's lives

[5687]

how do veterans how do soldiers who

[5688]

suffer from PTSD or close to that kind

[5691]

of diagnosis begin to heal

[5694]

what's the path for healing well I will

[5697]

hand it to the military because I think

[5699]

in terms of working with their active

[5701]

duty service members they really invest

[5703]

heavily in mental health the U.S

[5707]

Department of Defense was one of the

[5708]

first to bring animal assisted therapy

[5712]

into any type of treatment in the early

[5714]

1900s with uh bringing you know farming

[5717]

into certain hospitals and letting

[5719]

veterans help with the farms and brush

[5722]

the horses and which is so Advanced

[5725]

because now we have all this research on

[5727]

animal assisted therapy and

[5730]

um how beneficial it is and just looking

[5732]

in the eyes of a dog can increase your

[5733]

pain threshold and speed healing after a

[5736]

cardiac arrest help people with dementia

[5739]

and ambulate more freely it's incredible

[5741]

stuff simple

[5742]

uh and the military was ahead of the

[5744]

game on that and I don't think that's

[5746]

changed I did my training at a military

[5748]

Hospital in Hawaii tripler Army Medical

[5751]

Center it was phenomenal training and

[5755]

you know our psych Department there was

[5757]

so much interesting research going on we

[5760]

had and it was so integrated so you

[5764]

might not imagine that the military

[5766]

would be doing this but we had an

[5768]

acupuncture Department we had a

[5770]

chiropractic Department we had a yoga

[5773]

section we were doing yoga sessions

[5775]

there

[5776]

um I mean they anything that has

[5779]

evidence to support its efficacy was

[5782]

being utilized and I think that's pretty

[5785]

cool about our government they have a

[5787]

lot of funding so I'm glad they're using

[5788]

it on that the real challenge I think

[5791]

comes with the large-scale need of the

[5795]

veteran population

[5797]

um and they slipped through the cracks I

[5800]

know that the dod had a campaign going

[5802]

where they were doing outreached anybody

[5803]

who served for instance in the Vietnam

[5805]

War the problem is they were trying to

[5809]

get all of these people assessed for

[5810]

PTSD and it was great like they were

[5812]

getting phone calls mail it was sort of

[5815]

saying hey we know that you served come

[5817]

on in or let's schedule you an exam with

[5819]

a psychologist and just see if your owed

[5822]

benefits the idea of it's great the

[5824]

problem is that they Outsource to this

[5827]

third party company they're paying

[5829]

really low rates for a one hour meeting

[5832]

with a vet and you don't need to be

[5836]

specifically trained in assessing PTSD

[5839]

[5840]

and so you're getting these variations

[5842]

and opinions that are coming through and

[5844]

I've had clients who to me who I've

[5847]

worked with for years who have clear

[5849]

combat related PTSD according to Gold

[5851]

Standard measures according to my

[5853]

knowing them and observing their

[5855]

symptoms and how impaired they are and

[5857]

it is clearly associated with combat the

[5859]

content of their intrusive thoughts

[5861]

their nightmares Etc

[5863]

and they are having a one-hour meeting

[5866]

sometimes by phone with one of these

[5869]

psychologists who's been contracted by

[5871]

this third party organization that's not

[5874]

even enough for me to get through the

[5875]

first three few symptom questions on the

[5878]

Caps five assessment for PTSD but in

[5881]

that hour the psychology psychologist is

[5883]

saying definitively no PTSD

[5885]

and it's been a travesty for some people

[5888]

especially for those who need an

[5890]

advocate the most it tends to happen to

[5893]

my veterans who are maybe a little bit

[5895]

less sophisticated and presenting or

[5897]

advocating for themselves more humble

[5899]

less

[5900]

um you know the guys who need deserve it

[5903]

the most right they're just getting

[5905]

passed over and um and it's a maze I'm

[5908]

not quite sure what the solution is

[5910]

though before I mean I've worked for

[5911]

government agencies they're dealing it's

[5913]

a massive population I love that the

[5916]

Outreach is even happening and trying to

[5918]

get these guys in for assessment I think

[5920]

we can criticize any system

[5922]

um I'm glad that system is even

[5924]

happening but it still needs to be

[5926]

better so I've I've got a chance to

[5929]

interact with a lot of soldiers from uh

[5931]

that served in Iraq and Afghanistan and

[5933]

now a lot of soldiers from all different

[5935]

kinds of nations in Ukraine went to the

[5937]

front

[5938]

there's a there's a bond between

[5941]

soldiers unlike any other I don't know

[5943]

if you can speak to why do you think

[5946]

that is on the opposite side of PTSD

[5949]

there's a there's a deep human

[5952]

connection there's like a love for each

[5953]

other what is that what what is that

[5955]

about war and combat that creates that

[5959]

kind of well you're seeing a

[5961]

we talked earlier about that

[5962]

vulnerability right so

[5965]

I I believe that combat I believe that

[5968]

most survival situations strip away all

[5971]

ego and

[5974]

[5975]

real in I mean there are a couple

[5976]

different layers to this but I have not

[5979]

served in war so I um I want to be

[5982]

cautious here but

[5984]

from what I know uh just about

[5986]

psychology and also from my own

[5988]

experience of survival survival type

[5990]

experiences when you're with a group of

[5992]

people and uh

[5995]

all the ego Stripped Away Nothing Else

[5997]

Matters the focus is on the here and now

[5999]

and a specific Mission

[6001]

um or your day to day

[6003]

you can get really close you're very

[6005]

very vulnerable and

[6008]

um and also

[6010]

in my experience the guys I work with

[6013]

who have served there aren't a lot of

[6015]

people who understand what they've been

[6017]

through not only some of the Unspeakable

[6020]

things they've been through in combat

[6021]

but some of the things that they feel

[6023]

are unspeakable about returning

[6025]

especially if they are experiencing

[6027]

trauma a lot of them you know some of

[6031]

the things that service members with

[6033]

PTSD are the most reluctant to disclose

[6036]

is the feeling like they may not know if

[6038]

they love their children anymore or

[6040]

their wife

[6041]

that they don't even know if they can

[6043]

love anymore that they feel emotionally

[6045]

numb

[6047]

[6048]

that they want to kill someone that they

[6050]

have a whole lot of racist beliefs and

[6052]

thoughts

[6053]

um there are a lot of things that can be

[6056]

associated with PTSD that aren't as

[6059]

clear or expected and these guys

[6062]

don't have many people who understand it

[6064]

or they don't think they would

[6066]

but a lot of their fellow service

[6069]

members do

[6073]

and so I'm going back to Ukraine and um

[6078]

boy nothing makes

[6084]

nothing makes uh reveals a human

[6087]

condition

[6088]

in a more pure form than War

[6094]

especially the kind of War you get in

[6096]

that in that part of the world

[6098]

especially the war in Ukraine which is a

[6100]

very 20th century kind of War

[6103]

um brutal

[6106]

laughs

[6107]

well uh like I mentioned in a few

[6110]

different ways you're exceptionally

[6112]

Successful by I think the best

[6114]

definition of success you you you're

[6117]

doing what you love and you're one of

[6119]

the uh best people in the world of doing

[6122]

it and so whatever advice would you give

[6126]

to young people that look up to you that

[6127]

sorry for the TR in the trial which is

[6129]

your most public-facing thing

[6132]

um and are just looking young people

[6135]

that are looking to find what they want

[6137]

to do with their life career-wise or I

[6139]

love that question what would you tell

[6141]

them I'm gonna tell them something my

[6142]

dad told me he said to me Shannon just

[6146]

pick anything

[6148]

pick anything

[6150]

if you like it at all studying it just

[6153]

pick it

[6154]

he was like look

[6156]

don't worry about the job you don't even

[6158]

know all the jobs that exist

[6160]

pick something you like you will make it

[6163]

your own and that is exactly what

[6165]

happened

[6166]

I like psychology I was reading somehow

[6168]

self-help books it's not like I had this

[6171]

calling where I you know looking back I

[6175]

can actually create that story because I

[6178]

think now it makes a lot of sense that I

[6180]

do what I do but I was lost and scared I

[6184]

started studying psychology I met a

[6187]

professor who was really inspiring who

[6189]

wasn't even a psychology professor at

[6191]

you but he was public policy

[6193]

I stayed in touch with that Professor he

[6196]

is a dear friend still to this day that

[6198]

was 20 years ago we do research together

[6200]

in Mexico integrative research with uh

[6203]

you know public policy officials and

[6205]

environmental engineers and I get to be

[6207]

the psychologist on the trip I never

[6209]

ever dreamed that that sort of stuff

[6211]

could happen I didn't know about

[6212]

forensic psychology I also want to warn

[6215]

anybody who's interested in forensic

[6216]

psychology that's not like you're like

[6218]

solving crimes all day and getting

[6220]

called by the FBI you are going to be

[6223]

sitting alone in your home office with

[6225]

your husband bringing you like bowls of

[6227]

cereal and reminding you to go to the

[6229]

bathroom because you haven't gotten up

[6231]

in like 24 hours from the computer and

[6234]

uh you're gonna have papers all around

[6236]

you and you're just gonna write 75 dense

[6240]

pages with citations of like science

[6245]

it's brutal it's academic

[6248]

um but you're good but it's fulfilling

[6250]

my friend my friend Franny posted a meme

[6253]

of one of the girls from glears that

[6256]

they crying and saying like I'm the

[6258]

happiest I've ever been and she said It

[6260]

reminds her when I try to convince her

[6262]

to do forensic psych because I think her

[6264]

mind is perfect for it you have to be

[6265]

strategic and throw but it it's a slug

[6269]

but it's wonderful it's wonderful the

[6271]

image of your husband bringing you

[6272]

cereal while you work on the 75 pages is

[6275]

maybe the most romantic thing I've ever

[6277]

heard so we started on love let me ask

[6281]

one last question about the same topic

[6283]

what's the role of love in this whole

[6285]

thing

[6286]

in The Human Condition and this whole

[6288]

experiment we've got going on on Earth

[6291]

I think it's all there is like that

[6293]

Jewel song

[6294]

how does that go I don't don't sing it

[6297]

don't sing it don't get it in my head

[6298]

please don't so

[6300]

uh there have been some profound moments

[6303]

in my life where I feel like I uh am

[6306]

closest to kind of the truth of life or

[6310]

what it's all about and usually there's

[6312]

this resonating sense of love and ease

[6315]

and love for myself love for other

[6318]

people sort of like it's all okay we're

[6321]

all okay we're gonna get through this

[6323]

[6325]

I liked what you said about the harm

[6328]

caused by

[6329]

like the misinformation or negative

[6331]

things being said about you

[6333]

because you're right it it harms that

[6336]

bigger picture I think it holds us back

[6338]

takes us back from that truth that

[6342]

there's a love that connects all of us

[6343]

and that uh if you remember about that

[6346]

love it's all going to be okay I really

[6348]

hope it's going to be okay me too I

[6352]

believe it would be thank you so much

[6353]

for talking today Shannon you're an

[6355]

incredible person thank you for

[6356]

everything you do and for everything you

[6358]

stand for and uh from everything from

[6361]

your text message to just who you are

[6363]

and for this amazing conversation thank

[6366]

you

[6367]

thanks for listening to this

[6368]

conversation with Shannon Curry to

[6370]

support this podcast please check out

[6372]

our sponsors in the description and now

[6374]

let me leave you some more words from

[6377]

Charles Bukowski

[6379]

sometimes you climb out of bed in the

[6381]

morning and you think

[6382]

I'm not going to make it

[6384]

but you laugh inside remembering all the

[6387]

times you felt that way

[6390]

thank you for listening I hope to see

[6392]

you next time

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