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What is the best Insulation? (Part 1) - YouTube
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hi
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jake bruton with aero building in
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columbia missouri and today we're at our
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spring valley project and we're going to
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be having a conversation that i have
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all the time with clients and that
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conversation is what is the best
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insulation and i think after you watch
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this video you'll understand that that's
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not an easy answer or that's not an easy
[20]
question to answer uh but today we're
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gonna talk to steve riemer of g5
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enterprises and uh let's get our
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conversation started this is gonna be
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interesting
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[Music]
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good mornings hey good morning jake uh
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okay so
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you're with g5 enterprises yes sir and
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g5 for us here in colombia is
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represented by bolivar insulation
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correct in other parts of the state it's
[49]
other things like insul usa is that
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correct correct okay
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basically we've got 13
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branches uh
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most of them are based in missouri but
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we expand into kansas oklahoma um
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down into arkansas we've got arkansas
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insulation that is in uh springdale okay
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rogers uh another one in harrison and
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we've got locations all over um
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missouri joplin uh
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kansas city okay uh and nixa we're our
[81]
corporate so you guys we cover
[83]
market yes and you're a fairly decent
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sized company oh yes uh and you've been
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in the insulation business for how long
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i installed my first bat in 1977. okay
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so a while so steve's been around
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insulation for a while uh and that's
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that's actually uh where we'll start in
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just a second is with bats too it's
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funny that you said it like that uh we
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wanted to talk just real quick
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the idea behind this is what is the best
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insulation is not an easily answered
[112]
question the answer to that is it
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depends it depends on it depends on what
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you have to accomplish okay absolutely
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and your budget yep
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and so we'll talk about both from a
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budget standpoint
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and from a
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utility for like this project because
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we're here on the spring valley project
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let's just start with
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steebrick and building science
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corporations
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rule for a net zero house or for
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the point of uh uh
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sorry how am i trying to say this the
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point where things become
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less a return on investment
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you know the point where you should stop
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putting more insulation and then focus
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on other things right and that rule is
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10 20 40 60
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and 5
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and that's 10 underneath your slab which
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is what we have here
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20 on any foundation walls
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40 on any walls above grade
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60 in the attic and then windows or
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doors that are at least an r5 and so
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here we're 10 under our feet we don't
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have any below grade walls we have a
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combination of things that we'll discuss
[182]
in a minute about what's happening in
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our wall and this is roughly an r42 we
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went to an r70 in the attic and we'll
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talk about why we went above that 60
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point and then we're r9 or r7 to r9
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glass depending on function of the unit
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so we're really adhering to
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that paper from steve brick and that
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idea that building science corporation
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puts forward and that's a that's also a
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product of uh steve basic our architect
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used to work for building science
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corporation and now
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adheres to some of those same
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philosophies because those philosophies
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we think are true
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okay so the the conversation about
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insulation
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after we we know what our proportions
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might might be for something like this
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uh yes we can talk about code which in
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our market climate zone four is an r19
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uh for walls and uh i believe in r40
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r38
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you may be 40 here uh and so there's
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different ways to get to there
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the code doesn't read put this kind of
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insulation in
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the code reads put this much r value in
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it and so the conversation should start
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with r value once we have that that
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beginning out of the way so talk to us a
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little bit about what r value means and
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how that applies to the things that
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we're going to talk about well basically
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our value is uh the effective way that
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insulation stops heat flow through it
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just it's a resistance factor uh is how
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they name it so
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basically it's set up in a
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plexiglass box
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with a light bulb underneath it and they
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transfer heat through it and that's how
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you tell what the r factor is of a
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product um
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there are people that are trying to work
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on a different factor uh to come up with
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that something that's more real world
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you might say right uh because
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just the fact that it stops heat moving
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through it in a
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encased box
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isn't real world uh we've all got air
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movement outside uh you know air
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movement inside a wall cavity so that
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will reduce the r factor we may have
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soffit eaves that are letting things
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exactly rush in through our assembly
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exactly and inside a wall you've got you
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know air that's cold that's dropping and
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then it's it's rising on the inside
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where you're closer to the drywall so
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when it starts looping like that it will
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reduce the r factor
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in products that are fibrous that you
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can move insulate and move air through
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so
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uh but they they're all
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good products uh it just depends on what
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you have backing them up and the whole
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system that they're built into
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but that's basically what an r factor is
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is the the
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effective way that it can resist heat
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transfer and that's that's literally
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what the r and r value stands for it's
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just its ability to resist the movement
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of heat through it so
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we have laid out in front of us here and
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we'll just go through them like one by
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one uh we're not promoting one thing
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over the other we'll talk a little pro
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and con about each one we may talk about
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environmental impact on some of this
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stuff but we're just gonna we're gonna
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pick and choose and we'll just start
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with the one thing that you mentioned
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already and that would be bat insulation
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you said 1978 is that what we said
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76 77 okay uh so
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this this product is a fiberglass bat
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a lot of it's pink a lot of it is yellow
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those colors don't mean anything other
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than marketing right it's the
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manufacturer yes they're mark uh and so
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i grew up with the pink panther and with
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uh
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owens corning pink
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and so it's one of those things that
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when i think fiberglass i think pink i
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don't think of anything else
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you can get this faced with a
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vapor retarder on it
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and you can get it unfaced you can get
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fiberglass in anything from a two by
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four cavity to your attic space and you
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can get it from r13 all the way to 38
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have you ever seen higher than 38
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we have installed some of our 49 bats
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okay so you see there's a wide
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versatility with this product uh talk to
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me about grading of insulation steve
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the the install the install yeah okay uh
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typically hers raiders in a lot of
[432]
locations they are required to inspect
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housing after it's after the
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installation is done
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grade one basically is no compressions
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uh no gaps all your cuts have to be
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perfect around all of the outlets
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it's difficult to do with a fiberglass
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bat but it's possible
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it takes a lot of additional labor to
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make sure that you have good cuts
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that you separate
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either separate the bat and tuck it
[462]
behind your wiring or make a cut across
[465]
it and try and get that back together
[467]
it just that's one of the products that
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that it's difficult to get a grade one
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without spending a lot of labor time
[476]
which
[477]
yeah insulation is
[479]
one of those budget items
[481]
that people have to build around and so
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if we spend a lot of labor time
[486]
uh making it perfect it begins to push
[489]
it into another
[491]
another layer of insulation that we can
[493]
do
[494]
that
[495]
is easier to do than make all the cuts
[496]
in the fibers we might be able to spend
[498]
more money on a different product and
[500]
get the same quality of insulation by
[502]
spending less on labor correct and so
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the the system for fiberglass is grade
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one grade two grade three grade one is a
[510]
perfect install like you were saying
[511]
everything's cut around cut and fit
[514]
tightly it's the bat is allowed to
[517]
decompress and expand because the r
[519]
value rating that you're getting is not
[521]
an r value when it's mashed down it's at
[523]
the full depth of the cavity or the full
[525]
depth of the intended depth right the
[527]
product basically what's doing the
[529]
insulating is the amount of air that
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this bat can hold the void right so the
[534]
way it doesn't seem like it's there so
[535]
if it's compressed there's not much air
[537]
at my fingers yeah uh when it's like
[539]
that it can hold a lot of air and that's
[541]
what does the insulation uh you know
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when when a guy installs a bat in a wall
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and he pushes it down the sides and
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compresses those edges that's what
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they're talking about compression that
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they don't want to see that so
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um
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you know all the bats have to be
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completely out a lot of times they
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face staple that product in so the tabs
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are outside so that it can have its full
[564]
compress or its full expansion volume
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okay
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so i i was talking to one of the r d
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guys that owns corning a few years ago
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at a conference and one of the things
[574]
that he said to me was you know if you
[576]
if you think about where you cut around
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every single box you know there's 30
[580]
outlets in that wall and there's 15
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switches and if any of them if i can put
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my thumb in
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without touching
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fiberglass i've compromised 12 inches a
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radius around my thumb of 12 inches
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so that that to me says
[595]
while we talk about ease of installation
[597]
it comes in a bat you can fluff it and
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stick it in the wall and it's done
[601]
it also means that it's a complicated
[603]
product to get right correct or or more
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complicated than some probably to get
[608]
right certainly more labor-intensive
[610]
okay and so this is this is like our
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first step this is the first
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installation install
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installation that i installed as well uh
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if we go from there the next step up
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let's go to bat so even though there's a
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couple other products here let's talk
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about another version of bat and this
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happens to be
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what
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this is a rock wool or a thermofiber bat
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that is
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basically where
[636]
um your fiberglass bat is
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sand or melted you know melted sand
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melted glass that's spun out
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this is just made out of slag rock a
[647]
little heavier duty rock it has a higher
[650]
melting temperature uh so they use this
[652]
product a lot more so in fire safety
[657]
uh than they do you know just from a
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thermal standpoint because it's made of
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rocks
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we don't have to worry about it catching
[662]
fire correct correct well you don't have
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to worry about fiberglass catching fire
[666]
either it will melt sooner than this
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will but uh this is a this is a heavy
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bat i mean you can tell the difference
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just in the weight of this you know
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little over square foot section that
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we've got here and so he has a lot more
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when we're still talking about bats i i
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raised this one up because i wanted to
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have the the moisture conversation the
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fire conversation too okay that when
[686]
we're talking about moisture in the wall
[688]
we're not talking about bulk water
[690]
nothing we're going to talk about here
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is going to perform greatly if you have
[692]
water running down right inside of your
[694]
wall right we're talking about
[695]
incidental moisture that that is
[697]
small amounts carried by air or
[700]
occasional seasonal wedding you know due
[702]
to condensation uh so when we're talking
[705]
about that and we're talking bats first
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this guy is not going to be bothered by
[709]
water or fire because it's made of rocks
[711]
right this guy is going to be pretty
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darn resistant
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to water yes but it's not designed to be
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underwater like we just said it's not
[718]
bulk water right uh
[720]
after we talk about bats we go to a
[722]
blown in product and let's let's note
[725]
those and then we'll talk about their
[726]
ability to control moisture okay so
[729]
first first we have fiberglass so this
[732]
is this is the same product as that is
[734]
this correct this is a yeah this is uh
[736]
insole safe it's basically this is what
[738]
they call a virgin wall
[740]
it doesn't have any binder in it which
[742]
the binder is what makes this bat stay
[744]
together
[745]
uh so you can take this and rub it on
[747]
it's not gonna hurt on your hands it's
[748]
not gonna be itchy it's not gonna itch
[750]
like your standard fiberglass does um
[753]
this is specifically made
[755]
for blown in insulation uh you can tell
[758]
the difference in the fibers of it that
[760]
it doesn't have any because
[762]
it almost breaks apart on purpose right
[765]
right so it it doesn't have the binder
[767]
that this product is so it's easily
[769]
blown
[771]
and so this comes in a bag
[773]
they dump it in the in in our market
[776]
right bolivar dumps it into a hopper and
[778]
a truck
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and then they run pipe into the house uh
[781]
like an enormous garden hose right and
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somebody sprays this either in a netted
[786]
wall a netted ceiling or an atom just a
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dynamic correct okay and so
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its ability to deal with moisture is
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exactly the same basically as fiber
[796]
right right it can be
[798]
blown in the walls and in you know
[800]
ceilings uh netted ceilings tighter than
[804]
this to where it will have a greater
[806]
density
[807]
than this so it will so that the thumb
[809]
around the outlet problem
[811]
is not going to exist with the blown-in
[813]
product because it can just be blown
[814]
tighter up against all of the outlets um
[817]
it you know it is
[819]
um you're using more product so you are
[823]
you know naturally you're spending more
[825]
money on that but it is a a good product
[828]
like that it's still
[830]
a fibrous product the
[833]
air infiltration rate would be less on
[835]
that than what the fiberglass would so
[837]
you're beginning to get to a point where
[839]
you're stopping more air through you
[842]
know than what you can with a fiberglass
[843]
bat and air can move pretty freely
[846]
through this
[848]
uh it's surprisingly the amount you know
[850]
we've done demo where there's dirt on
[853]
the inside of the bat where there's been
[854]
a you know a split in the bat and air is
[857]
just traveling through correct and
[859]
carrying all kinds of stuff yeah if you
[860]
do many demos you look around
[862]
the perimeter of those bats and they're
[865]
dirty they're just brown yeah that's
[866]
from the dirt that's coming in around it
[868]
so it's a great filter but yes it is a
[871]
filter but i like i said it in its
[874]
correct condition
[876]
uh it works it does prevent you know
[879]
does prevent heat flow yeah don't don't
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take any of the negativity that we might
[883]
or attach to any of these to be not a
[885]
recommendation they all have their place
[888]
so next
[890]
you can even see the dust come off of
[892]
that one
[893]
this is a product called cellulose and
[896]
it looks to me like that's newspaper
[899]
is that correct yes it is okay and and
[902]
so in our market
[905]
cellulose and blown fiberglass are
[907]
probably interchangeable we're gonna use
[909]
them in all the same spots right they
[911]
are um
[912]
you know you can use cellulose to
[915]
dense pack a wall just the same way that
[916]
you would with this fiberglass loose
[918]
fill blow it in an attic
[921]
there is
[922]
little
[924]
difference in r factor between them and
[926]
you know in those attic situations uh
[928]
you do have to blow more inches of
[930]
fiberglass and you do a cellulose uh to
[932]
get up to your r38 or r40 but
[936]
in an attic you've got
[937]
you know limited inches i mean you're
[939]
unlimited inches yeah so you're not
[941]
constrained by the space of the wall
[943]
cavity say in an attic so you can just
[945]
dump as much in as you want correct
[947]
correct when you start dense packing
[948]
both of these materials you end up with
[950]
an r factor that's
[952]
within two or three of each okay so
[954]
they're pretty comparable across the
[956]
board this product being uh
[959]
they call it cellulose if you remember
[960]
from like high school science class that
[963]
the trees are made of plants are made of
[966]
cellulose
[967]
and so
[968]
this in the past has been made from
[970]
sawdust it's been made from all sorts of
[973]
things that were always
[975]
started as a plant they always have been
[977]
organic they've always started as a
[978]
plant so my my question is
[982]
this is recycled content
[984]
but if this is just recycled newspaper
[987]
and we use it in our wall and we have a
[988]
little bit of incidental moisture like
[990]
we're just talking about why doesn't
[991]
this just turn to mold why doesn't it
[993]
just rot
[994]
it it has chemical in it so it won't um
[998]
but it it also
[1000]
once it gets wet and though and the air
[1004]
the air holding capacity changes
[1007]
i don't want to say paper mache i did
[1009]
say paper mache
[1010]
you kind of you kind of end up with that
[1012]
yeah you know it it fills in those air
[1014]
holes when you when you take wet
[1015]
newspaper and compress it yep uh
[1019]
it doesn't have as much capacity to hold
[1021]
air anymore and do the insulating that
[1023]
you need it to do okay because it's not
[1024]
wallets while it's recycled content
[1027]
they're also stuffing it full of
[1028]
chemicals and borate specifically right
[1030]
to keep it from molding or mildewing
[1032]
which
[1034]
it's inert once it's in the wall and
[1035]
you're not touching it and you're not
[1037]
consuming it it's not going to bother
[1038]
you at all right
[1040]
you know
[1041]
most of these have some downside for the
[1043]
stuff that they have absolutely we all
[1044]
want to believe that our walls are going
[1045]
to be dry and that we have you know
[1048]
little moisture that goes through them
[1051]
it's not
[1052]
cellulose's fault that we get
[1054]
moisture inside a wall that's what we've
[1056]
done to control the moisture up to it
[1058]
but
[1059]
if that happens then it becomes a
[1062]
material that's really difficult to deal
[1063]
with
[1064]
yeah you know they have to get that out
[1066]
and they can blow that wet and they can
[1067]
blow that dry what's what's the benefit
[1069]
of blowing it wet benefit of blowing it
[1072]
wet is you don't have to put up a net
[1074]
uh okay so i can come in you can come to
[1076]
that in place right there um you know so
[1080]
it it will stick in place until you hang
[1083]
your drywall uh
[1085]
one key factor that you need to pay
[1087]
close attention to is that you make sure
[1090]
that that material dries down to
[1093]
um a certain percentage before you start
[1095]
covering it up okay so we're monitoring
[1097]
it yeah you getting
[1099]
uncovered for
[1100]
two to three days okay uh you know to
[1103]
make sure that you're that the moisture
[1105]
content is low enough to cover it up and
[1107]
and lock it in the wall so then from a
[1110]
production builder standpoint maybe the
[1111]
thing to do is net and blow it dry that
[1114]
way you can have crackers the next day
[1116]
hanging things right uh and that's one
[1118]
of those i'm always thinking about what
[1119]
does the production schedule look like
[1121]
so after we talk about bats and we talk
[1123]
about blown in oh by the way you can
[1125]
also get uh mineral rule or rockwool in
[1129]
a blown form we just don't have anybody
[1132]
or yeah a blown in place right uh it's a
[1135]
little more difficult on the machines
[1137]
it's it wears them
[1139]
on the person that's yeah blowing it
[1141]
yeah but again you get the benefits of
[1143]
those two blown in place products
[1145]
in
[1146]
mixed with it's rocks it's not going to
[1148]
catch on fire no moisture is going to
[1149]
bother it it's a little harder to come
[1150]
by so we don't have any of it here so
[1152]
after we talk about bats and blown in we
[1155]
start talking about uh
[1157]
cheat goods
[1158]
and there are multiple different kinds i
[1160]
would say that also there is a a mineral
[1163]
wool product that comes in large sheets
[1166]
that you see a lot for exterior
[1168]
application that we don't have here as
[1170]
well and again it's rocks so it's right
[1172]
to be bothered for being outside so
[1175]
we have three different kinds of uh
[1178]
board insulation here we have poly iso
[1181]
xps and eps run me through a little bit
[1184]
of what what the difference in these
[1186]
products is um
[1188]
basically it's the chemical makeup of
[1190]
them uh you know poly iso uh would have
[1194]
the highest r factor of these uh it
[1198]
needs to have this product in place on
[1200]
it the sheathing on each side of the
[1201]
skin on it
[1203]
so it doesn't start to you know
[1205]
decompose
[1206]
but this is a you know it's a great
[1208]
product uh typically used above grade
[1211]
you can't get moisture inside that um
[1214]
[Music]
[1217]
it starts to lose our value and
[1219]
integrity
[1220]
when you can get it below you get it
[1221]
below grade and yeah and when you get it
[1223]
wet so now i mean there are people that
[1225]
are using this product
[1226]
um
[1227]
below grade inside ohms you know on the
[1230]
inside of the elevation walls and it's a
[1231]
good product for that but it does have a
[1233]
good high r factor
[1235]
um and this is like a r six and a half
[1238]
per inch
[1239]
correct so this is like an r13 and two
[1241]
inches here
[1243]
right and then the xps
[1246]
xps is just extruded polystyrene uh
[1250]
these two are closer in families
[1252]
together um
[1254]
this has an r5 yup per inch
[1258]
used
[1259]
typically it has a lot more compressive
[1262]
strength
[1263]
than what this product does so from a
[1266]
you know putting it on the exterior of a
[1268]
foundation and then back filling against
[1270]
it it will withstand that where this
[1271]
product wouldn't do that uh this is so
[1274]
this is approved for below grade correct
[1276]
okay correct um
[1278]
basically your
[1280]
uh
[1281]
expanded
[1282]
um
[1284]
is
[1285]
basically what you consider for your
[1288]
coolers
[1290]
or coffee cup uh call it beadboard yeah
[1295]
it's just you know it's a lot of little
[1296]
beads of expanded polystyrene there um
[1300]
less r factor uh
[1303]
not as um
[1305]
not as conducive to you know compressive
[1308]
strength on it it will you know it will
[1310]
dent uh so
[1312]
not like this product but it's a you
[1315]
know as far as exterior use below grade
[1318]
um i don't see many guys use it on the
[1320]
exteriors they put it under slabs like
[1323]
that and so
[1324]
when you talk about all three of these
[1326]
products
[1328]
these are all petroleum-based they're
[1330]
all in that family uh
[1332]
it's my understanding that the poly iso
[1334]
is probably considered the most
[1337]
eco-friendly from a blowing agent
[1339]
standpoint so in their manufacturing
[1340]
process they aerate the product they
[1343]
shove air into it just like we were
[1344]
talking about with the other things but
[1346]
they do that by introducing a blowing
[1348]
agent in the manufacturing process and
[1350]
while these two are on their way to
[1352]
being way more eco-friendly in the
[1354]
united states they're not yet and the
[1357]
the
[1359]
poly polyiso is probably the best from
[1361]
an environmental impacts
[1364]
we've used
[1366]
the eps and the eps is an interesting
[1368]
conversation because you say it dimples
[1370]
but at the same time we can order
[1372]
different kinds of eps that have
[1374]
different compaction densities yeah so
[1376]
this is actually a type 9 it's a 20 psi
[1380]
which you know if you extrapolate that
[1381]
out that's more weight than any house is
[1383]
going to have on it
[1385]
per square foot
[1386]
the interesting thing about this the the
[1388]
type 9 specifically it's what they put
[1390]
under heated runways and if you've ever
[1392]
seen them building up on ramps to build
[1395]
a ramp across the highway that's what
[1397]
they bet they use as backfill because
[1399]
they can get a lot of space with high
[1401]
compression quickly cover it with dirt
[1403]
they know this isn't going to biodegrade
[1405]
being underground and they they're able
[1407]
to really use this in a lot of
[1409]
interesting ways that when i
[1411]
cut it and it comes apart like a broken
[1413]
up coffee cup that i used to play with
[1414]
at the baseball field or the softball
[1416]
field when my sister played softball
[1418]
it's weird to think that that
[1420]
that move has gone that far
[1422]
so these sheet goods
[1424]
mostly in our market you're going to see
[1426]
them inside
[1428]
there is some some ability to do
[1430]
exterior foam uh and we'll talk about
[1432]
exterior at the very end we'll talk here
[1434]
about what we have here uh and so after
[1437]
we talk about these
[1439]
we're on to spray foams right
[1442]
and so again there's in our
[1443]
environmental conversation that
[1446]
everything on this half of the table is
[1447]
probably not as good for the environment
[1449]
just from a manufacturing standpoint uh
[1453]
there's an argument to be made one way
[1454]
or the other in the long term of well if
[1456]
this house uses a lot less energy
[1458]
maybe that's better for the environment
[1460]
if we have you know so we could go back
[1462]
and forth on that but
[1464]
when we're talking about spray foam the
[1466]
interesting thing that's about that i
[1467]
think is really interesting about spray
[1469]
foam this is a product that's
[1470]
manufactured here not here in the state
[1473]
of missouri i mean here manufactured
[1475]
on-site it's manufactured on-site the
[1477]
rest of these are all taken care of and
[1479]
shipped to us and all we have to do is
[1480]
install them properly
[1482]
these come in chemical form and we have
[1485]
to mix it and put it on the wall now the
[1488]
gun sprays it out right do you want to
[1491]
talk to us about the process for spray
[1493]
foam sure
[1494]
i'm going to cut in right here and say
[1496]
that the conversation
[1498]
with uh our insulator was so good and
[1501]
the content was so great this video is
[1504]
actually only about halfway over so what
[1506]
we're gonna do is we're actually gonna
[1507]
just pick a point and splice here and uh
[1511]
next week will be part two so thanks for
[1513]
watching stay tuned for next week for
[1515]
part two
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