How To Make $10,000,000+ Selling Someone Else's Product - YouTube

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so we grew a internet marketing agency I
was doing a multi-million dollars in
revenue and very high margin we ran
something in people getting out of
credit card debt and I actually like
defaulted on bills to understand what it
felt like to be a consumer in credit
card I wanted to go through the process
I wanted to feel how it felt like to be
my consumer
a bit of a taboo statement one of the
the best ways to learn is on someone
else's dime I think when we first
started we were getting paid like forty
dollars a phone call and at its peak
we're getting paid 120 a phone call and
it was the exact same customer the exact
same product exact same person the only
difference that happened was my
relationship with them I'm gonna hit the
guy on LinkedIn borderline stalking him
to get in touch with him become friends
with him on Instagram I got a front row
seats to the Chicago Bears and replying
to his stories like this little I
would do and I became such good friends
I was working on a contract for eight
months within two weeks at a contract on
my desk after doing that this is the
reality where I can actually make more
money faster when everyone else is only
talking about apps
welcome to the wgmi podcast where we
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other than that enjoy the episode all
right Anthony sarandria
thanks for coming here brother how are
you doing today doing great man dude
it's good to see you good to see you I
am super excited to talk to you today
mainly because our not our interests but
we work kind of in the same field or
you're but you're like the master and so
selfishly I think I'm gonna be able to
learn a lot from this podcast but if you
guys don't know Anthony is a master
affiliate marketer Master at driving
traffic and Lead gen specifically and
now he's pursuing his passion in making
music and performing at EDC as a DJ
which sorry in and of itself is like the
dream find financial success then pursue
your passion at the highest level so so
much to learn here but first again you
know I love asking how much money they
make he sold his company to a public
company and obviously can't talk about
it but he's doing very very well for
himself so let's just go ahead and start
with affiliate marketing sure and break
down specifically could you just kind of
high level what is affiliate marketing
of course and then maybe talk about like
what makes a good affiliate marketing
partnership absolutely so we'll start on
the advertiser side so you've got a
company they could be a direct consumer
product uh and that's you that's usually
what it is could be business the
business as well too but um essentially
how it works is companies looking for uh
uh a way to generate more sales to their
uh to their product or their service or
whatever that is and oftentimes it's a
um low risk for them because it's
commission only sales person right so we
have a uh a chair company they might say
hey I'll give anyone fifty dollars if
they can sell one of my chairs so it's
really like if you think about it in the
simplest terms it's uh they're hiring
commission only sales people and you're
a commission with salesperson okay so
it's basically like this company lets
you sell their product and they give you
a commission or a percentage okay so
super simple so when you started
affiliate marketing maybe early or
middle part of your journey sure what
were you looking for when it came to
like who to partner with because you
could work with like 100 different
companies 100 yeah and that's the one
interesting thing being the commission
only sales person you get to kind of be
the the hot girl or you get to be the
selective person right like it's like
not necessarily the other way around
whereas like I started with a
traditional internet marketing agency
where we're selling you know five grand
a month 10 grand a month whatever it is
contracts to run their Google AdWords
your SEO or whatever that right and in
that case it's really you're getting
interviewed a lot by the company we're
here because you're the commissionally
salesperson you're doing a lot of
excuse me so a couple things I'm looking
for in an offer in general one is um the
cost tolerance they have for it meaning
how much can they pay for it so coffee
cups and they're gonna give a two dollar
Bounty it's a very small small margin to
go actually acquire customer especially
if it's through paid traffic right
they're not even organic there's not a
huge Bounty
um so I'm looking for something that
really if you're asking me like has at
least a 500 CPA which is essentially
cost per acquisition that's the the
Bounty for the actual product or service
that it is for them to actually get a
sale on it but then I've got enough
margin to go in my world I'm a paid ads
guy to go actually acquire a customer
okay 100 bucks so I'm looking for a high
Mark it's usually like a high ticket
and you're saying you're interviewing
these companies
um yeah I use interviews kind of like
Loosely I'm not like sitting down across
the table Yeah but like if you're so if
you're just getting started there's
offer Vault there's a ton of these
raccoon and all these things where you
can go ClickBank that's the one I've
heard of yeah
we can go look at all these these offers
on there and a lot of times it's a
really good place to start because if
you get in touch with an account manager
you can say hey here's I think I'm
either I'm good at I've got a great
YouTube organic Channel or I'm really
good at Facebook ads or I think I'll be
good at lying facing heads what are some
offers that you see people making a lot
of money on today or doing a lot of
Revenue right like they won't know the
exact profit that the person's okay so
go a step further and like get some
inside information 100 don't just sign
up right away 100 okay and I would just
I would ask them and say hey here's
where I think my traffic or customers
are going to come from and
um who do you currently have today
that's doing really well and what offers
and a lot of times these we'll call
middlemen is what they what they are
like like a ClickBank or something like
that where they know all the advertisers
like we talked about right dive into
that they know all the Publishers which
is like me and you the people that have
the track and then they kind of sit in
the middle and kind of broker the deal
in between so their value really is
um I think underutilized for a lot of
people I think people should really
utilize them for really what they're
making all the money for is helping
download you on what's going to work and
cut the learning curve for you versus is
going in Google and searching you know
top chair companies and then emailing
each one and getting it off there as a
silly analogy so A Chair Company would
be something that's in line with maybe a
500 CPA like a luxury like I just made
that up okay he was like
um we did a lot of financial services
so mortgage is a great example like I
did lead generation so I didn't actually
do physical products I was selling like
uh Medicare insurance or Private health
insurance and when I say selling I was
driving a customer to fill out a form or
call in and then I was using one of
those Advertiser Partners their call
center would actually enroll someone in
the product those products are worth you
know High lifetime value so they can
afford to pay 500 to a thousand two
thousand dollars to actually get a new
customer yeah because they're not
tangible products it's more like a
monthly insurance it's like printing
money basically for these people or
selling mortgages I get that so you what
what ad traffic were you sending what
platform a lot of Facebook originally I
got Facebook and then we came Instagram
Facebook and we actually had a really
good we were one of Snapchat's top 10
Financial advertisers Snapchat yeah
Snapchat was selling for Snapchat or
onset no I'm sorry on Snapchat as like
an ad marketing Insurance products on
Snapchat can anyone sign up for Snapchat
got like ads or is that like private no
as far as I know yeah 100 you can be on
the ad Network huh that's insane same
thing with Tick Tock anything with
YouTube or Facebook or Google AdWords
okay so for the sake of this
conversation let's focus on one let's
just say did you do insurance would you
say you're an expert on insurance or
you've done it before okay so and did
you learn Facebook ads and Instagram ads
from a true or traditional agency before
yes that's kind of how you understood
yeah so a lot of times when people are
like how do you get started in affiliate
marketing because again you're a
commissionally salesperson you're you're
really putting up in this case the ad
spend right time all this stuff like you
really got to make sure you're good at
it like I think the biggest it's a bit
of a taboo and not a play with the
correct statement but I think one of the
the best ways to learn is on someone
else's dime so when I when I had a first
I got a job and I got paid to spend
someone else's money on on Facebook at
the time and I get to learn how that
worked on again I was getting paid just
play with someone else's money and I had
an ad agency would pay me per month to
again manage their money so it was very
low low risk for me low investment and I
was literally getting paid to learn in
my head which was amazing and I it took
until I felt like it was really good to
go start putting in my own money because
they were my website gotcha at that
point I knew I was pretty pretty good at
what I was doing and I felt a lot more
High degree of confidence spending at
the time 100 a day or a thousand dollars
a month or what you know whenever it
wasn't putting money into it versus just
coming off the street and being like all
right I'm gonna get my feet wet in
Facebook ads which there's nothing wrong
with that either uh I I mean for anyone
listening I would highly prefer to learn
so you just had to become a great
marketer first before you had the comp
not necessarily confidence but
willingness to bet it all on your
performance as a marketer exactly right
how did you have the confidence to just
even do marketing for other companies
though like where did you learn or how
did you get into that it's um honestly
it's not like a Cinderella Story I I was
in college I sorted by the highest
paying internship and one of them was a
company that I didn't understand what
they did I didn't know what SEO was web
doesn't anything I went to it because it
was like at the time it's 15 bucks an
hour yeah like freaking I just worked at
one okay two thousand uh 2010 I was like
this is that's amazing right and
um so I went there I interviewed and
when I left I was like dude this guy
like jokingly I told my friends like
that guy probably has a crush on me if
he hires me because I don't know I I did
terrible yeah closing back a few days
later hires me and uh so uh so that's
how I started I really just got a job
okay they need to learn what goes into
marketing and then you started one
yourself eventually you know I think the
mindsetter takeaway from that was
because there's nothing special about
getting a job and all this like right I
always like came with a thought that
over deliver from what I'm paid for
um so
very good so over deliver for what I'm
paid so if someone pays you five
thousand dollars a month I'm trying to
deliver ten thousand dollars worth of
service to them someone's paying you ten
thousand trying to deliver twenty
thousand dollars okay service and and
even when I had a job at 15 an hour I
would not bill for some hours I would
stay up late and I was just I was just
trying to over deliver in every single
way possible and I think that's
something that still to this day sticks
with me and I think that's um I think
that's that's one of the you know if you
said like what's one of the reasons like
why you I I think it's just that mindset
and commitment to over delivering and I
think too often people are looking like
you know I worked four hours today like
right freaking third title too you know
what I mean a lot of entitlement versus
again like
um just over delivering I think that's
something I've taken a lot of like pride
in with my marketing I would do a lot of
free work if I didn't have results I
would want to do it and learn it before
I sold it to people where I feel like in
the marketing space it's almost like
viewed as you just need to like sign as
many clients as possible and then just
rack it up where you don't take
accountability for the results that's
right and so I think that mindset is a
big indicator of why you're so
successful thank you for that and
honestly it just it makes sense when you
uh so it makes sense on service what you
just said why people are selling that
and then it makes sense the other
philosophy because you become a puppy
mill and it's so exhausting really with
with low uh I get back to margin all
right like 500 a month client
uh it's the weirdest thing I I found
yeah and maybe people listening to me I
know exactly five dollar a month plan
was infinitely more of a pain in the
middle yeah than a 25 000 or 100 I had
this place said let's be quarterly this
client would call me on Saturday night
saying what's going on so to have a
thousand five hundred dollar a month
clients seemed
miserable and at the beginning when and
you have to I think a lot of times like
you know it's so easy to say no like
we'll go work with a public company
United Healthcare like the biggest
company but at the time dude anyone who
would pay me for anything I was doing
video algorithm work I did like
borrowing a video camera for someone
else meanwhile I was selling like paid
Facebook ads like anything anyone paid
paid me for I would do but again as as
quickly as possible that over that over
delivering I I this is an interesting
one so we grew a internet marketing
agency I was doing a multi-million
dollars in revenue and very high margin
this is my my first business not the one
I'm just sold very high margin business
we never spent a dollar on marketing and
it was because it was all referrals it
was all so my customer would go from the
2 000 a month client to a five to a 10
to a 15 000 because I was again over
delivering adding service I was
upselling them and I don't say upsell
like a dirty word upsell yeah you were
mentioning like up to sell like let me
see where I can jam you like yeah adding
value that they could pay me for is that
like what I think about upselling and
then they would refer me to great people
and I'd get referral partners then I'd
work with a PR agency that would
deployment in the 10 companies and again
it's just because we just did we were
committed doing really good work and I
knew that money would follow and after
you see it happen once or twice it
becomes really addicting versus like if
you start off out of the gate saying
okay let me Jam this guy for 500 bucks
and never look at anything and you know
just see how often I can Bill him for
him maybe he won't see like it doesn't
feel good it doesn't feel good you get
Negative calls negative feedback you
only get you know you and I mentioned a
little bit off camera but you get one
personal brand I can I could run 100
businesses before I die but I get one
personal brand and it was that just
always and we were joking like what a
small town it is like that always stuck
with me that I get one personal brand so
that commitment to being known as the
person who is a really good guy that
does really stand up work that over
delivers is a hard worker like that's so
important to me maybe that's ego we were
talking about yeah maybe that's ego but
I think that's I don't think so if it is
it serves me then anyway all that to be
said I mean back to the referral thing I
mean that is objectively how agencies
will grow and so you don't do good work
you won't get referrals and then people
just try to buy courses and figure out
why is this not working right because no
one's telling their friends that they
had a good experience with you but let's
go ahead and just go into the tactics
now of making those results so let's go
back to the insurance example we're
talking about you're going to run
Facebook or Instagram ads what is your
philosophy on driving traffic like
what's your funnel look like what's your
creative like break it down so I
actually go the other way real quick on
The Advertiser side because so often I
think people are focused on how to get
my cpms or cost per thousand questions
or my cost per click down or my my uh my
cost to drive a lead or a customer
and specifically in affiliate marketing
I think what gets really doesn't get
looked at enough is the relationship
with the advertiser because a lot of
times if someone says they could pay
let's go back to the chair analogy they
could pay 50 a chair and they could
really spend 120 for that for that same
customer they're just putting it out
there we'll take anyone at 50 bucks but
that's not truly their threshold of
margin so going upstream and like for me
I'll use a real life example insurance
right like I think when we first started
we were getting paid like 40 a phone
call and at its peak we're getting paid
120 a phone call and it was the exact
same customer the exact same product
exact same person the only difference
that happened was my relationship with
them so I was talking to them about
scale and the quality I'm driving and
the commitment to the brand and and and
I can get I can get more in depth with
it but I would I would really focus on
if I was just starting an affiliate
offer or if I just started becoming an
affiliate I would really focus on
first understanding the brand
understanding understanding their needs
uh as quickly as possible getting to
talk to the actual brand themselves even
through the middleman if you have to the
ClickBank at the beginning and
understand what are their growth targets
where where are they looking to grow
what products they're looking to grow
what type of customers or actual real
customer that they want and through
those conversations you actually become
you said would you say preferred partner
yeah you go from being an affiliate to a
preferred partner and at that point
you're actually like it's a partnership
at that point so when they have to uh
cut cut their marketing dollars they cut
you last or anything the scale they come
to you first because a lot of these
Brands so funny like raise a ton of
money and they're requiring customers at
all costs and it doesn't have to be
economical for them right so the chair
is worth 100 bucks and they're charging
they're paying you 200 for the chair
just because they're trying to grow less
now with the legislation and yeah rates
have gone but still like
um so anyway so uh spending more time
and tactically what that looks like is
flying out and meeting with them getting
faces oh my God for it face to face
um actually like uh Christmas time I
would know my account manager loved the
Chicago Bears I got a front row seats to
the sugar this is complete reverse way
of thinking about it 100 and it's like
you know we were jamming about how much
we love psychology but it's really like
becoming a really good partner in French
with with them and doing things other
people already do and you know and and
you really see it rewarded a whole
wholesomely on the on the other side for
me at least again the 40 to 120
. this is well this is reflective again
your success because I feel like a lot
of people are attracted to affiliate
marketing because on the outside it
seems like beginner friendly you just
need to get a link and then start
driving chat traffic as cheaply as
possible well you're going the complete
opposite these people are like trying to
hope these people don't know like see
them they're trying to collect a check
on the back end where you're like hey
nice to meet you here's a cake for your
birthday here's whatever but but to your
point the barrier entry is nothing right
means it's highly competitive right when
you start doing things that other people
won't do like I love like you asked me
like what's the difference of marketing
versus like insurance I said compliancy
and like most people are like uh for me
I love it the more oops I have to jump
through the more pain in the neck
something is the more I know that people
are not there and I can actually go
stand out so if I can go through and
learn compliancy and going through and
become a freaking borderline paralegal
at this point where I know exactly how
everything you can and can't say like
I've stood out so much as a partner than
everyone else going to fly in person all
these other things so doing what others
um aren't doing is exactly I think where
there's actually edges in the business
business to make money because
everyone's trying to see how and we'll
go through it too how to get cheaper
traffic or how to drive traffic
everyone's like you said signing up and
clicking the link but like are you
reaching out to the company actually
directly trying to create a relationship
there and learn to hit the guy on
LinkedIn borderline stalking him to get
in touch with him become friends with
him on Instagram replying to his stories
like this is all I would do the
advertiser yes the account manager at
The Advertiser so the the freaking the
the guy at United Healthcare I literally
I knew there was a Medicare conference I
had I had a hope that he would be there
I flew out to Jackson Hole Wyoming I got
this guy drunk enough where he literally
pissed his pants like no joke and I
became such good friends with him and I
was working on a contract for eight
months within two weeks I had a contract
on my desk after doing that and that's
just stuff that other people aren't
doing and instead when you say contract
he's been like more favorable terms or
just to advertise for the person
breakfast so let me go click you said
um you know ClickBank oh instead of
going through ClickBank
as an example yeah yeah that's the best
we're using that because that's like the
main street terms
ClickBank is like uh I call it like an
affiliate Network so it's going around
the network directly to the offer is
where I'll call like The Advertiser in
this case United Healthcare was offered
directly with the company and you get
favorable terms no fee and now you have
a relationship with them so you can like
actually see what they're looking for
and you can actually deliver for them
what they want instead of just self
viewing it selfishly which I think the
biggest problem with affiliate marketing
that's right and then this the and even
down to like um let's go back to that
that same like um uh uh moral that we're
talking about here like I would bleed
sometimes for months when they said hey
I need to push this new like um they
were it's called final expense insurance
doesn't matter it's another plan they
said I I need to push this I was
bleeding over here just to help them
grow this and I would let them know I'm
not saying I would do it just because
I'm a nice guy like I would let them
know that I'm doing them a favor over
here but I would lose money to continue
to not only grow the relationship but
strengthen the relationship because so I
can make more money over here and that's
again those are little things that other
people won't do or aren't doing in my
opinion but the second you have
something working from an affiliate
offer I would I would literally shove my
computer about Facebook and minimize
that Tab and and working on my ads and
everything and like I'm the only thing
I'd be focused on is how to go direct
with the advertiser and how to
strengthen my relationship up there
you know they could shut you down at any
point is that you're saying like to
avoid that in a way I'm more saying um
my attention would go towards growing
the relationship with the advertiser
less about my ads and I'm not saying I'm
saying that to be dramatic because I
think it makes sense if it's working
don't touch it but yes and no and I'm
sorry maybe I'm being too dramatic and
funny but 99.9 of people are focused on
their ads right and point one or focused
on The Advertiser and I guess I'm just
trying to be dramatic and give a shake
to say this is actually where if you ask
me where I made most of my money it's
not I I think myself and my team are
unbelievable marketers so I'm not
necessarily to write a downplay it but
I'm sure there's much much better
marketers than me but we were able to
make a ton more money because I focused
over here versus Justin could you give
examples of you can sound you might
sound narcissistic here sure but why
would this be worthwhile for your own
self-interest yeah the working with
Advertiser yeah yeah better rates or
better so higher payout was one thing we
mentioned payment terms so I would get
down to prepay whereas like at networks
or someone else was like net 60 so my
cash flow was a lot better I would I
would better pay out better pay out ah
okay I would learn about the demographic
better so I could actually feed my
advertising my what I was doing my ads
better because I knew who their actual
customer was that brought the highest
lifetime value to them and so learned
what they would be willing to pay more
so they say okay well someone's you know
closer they to 65 versus an 80 year old
we can actually pay you a little bit
more for that oh well why don't we set
up a dedicated campaign where I just
drive you 65 to 70 year olds and you pay
me 120 on that and anything over 70 year
olds you can pay me 100 bucks on that's
a good idea let's do this you're
actually cutting deals and negotiating
because I'm understanding the business
right and and at a minimum minimum
minimum I implore people to do this
because there there will be such better
advertisers such better advertisers
because they'll actually understand what
the heck they're selling and who the
demographic is and we talk about like
psychology like well the mindset of
their consumer like what what what do
they want versus like I could think that
so get a company I'll just keep using
this as a silly example because I think
it's like it's easy to understand
get a comfy chair You're Gonna Love
versus if I understood like most people
buy a new chair because they have
excruciating back spasms I was like are
you tired of back spasms keeping you up
you're messaging yeah like my messaging
so much better to say never experience
never have to take a pain medication
again for your back spasms and actually
get the first good night's sleep of your
life by buying this chair how much
better is that than way better black
chair with gold trim that looks really
cool you're gonna love it right like I
would only know that and I I use that as
an example like a deep down demographic
by talking to my Advertiser on and
learning about their customers to learn
about their needs you kind of get their
data internally that's exactly right huh
that's and that's kind of outcome based
marketing don't list all the features
it's gold with this padding no one knows
I just want to know how it benefits them
which is the key to Marketing in my
opinion but if you don't understand what
the benefit is to the end user you think
it's a flashy video 100 yeah get get
better better Medicare insurance versus
if I knew that average senior is on
eight different prescription pills and
that oh my God the Medicare right
coverage covers that never pay for a
you don't know that when you go click on
a link and sign up as a Medicare
affiliate you're like check your
insurance if you're over 65. yeah I
think this is the biggest thing
that beginners do they just think they
can get a link real quick make a
gimmicky website in a day they need to
make money in three days that's right
where you're putting like days months
thousands of dollars into relationships
so you can get the customer data and
then use that for your marketing
campaigns and then on top of that
getting better deals so you have better
edges in affiliate marketing which is
super competitive 100 100 so smart thank
you and I'm and I'm not doing that
necessarily again because I'm a nice guy
I'm a capitalist I want to make 100
three minutes as well too but I just
found this is where I can actually make
that money that's the reality this is
the reality where I can actually make
more money faster when everyone else is
preaching to go they'll do that you know
like the lazy illusion of just get it
done as fast as possible anyone can do
it by my course today that's exactly
right and I guarantee that course is
only talking about ads and let's get
into that too on how to run better ads
but they're missing the other piece of
the puzzle which if you think about it
in theory like if someone's got a really
good brand really good product low
return rates upsells are for me they
have a really good call center great
um uh you know uh uh conversion
conversion rate optimize flow or
something like that like I can some
really like not that great at traffic
and they actually kind of like hold
weight like they kind of carry me along
the way so it's an interesting way to
think that's interesting yeah we're just
I don't have to be that great a marketer
if I've got the right partner they could
have just a badass sales team that can
enroll freaking anyone with a pulse
that's attractive as hell let's do that
I don't even have to be that good at
marketing I think there's something to
say about that as well with marketing
like if you understand the messaging you
don't need like the craziest of crazy
creatives now obviously you can and
it'll do well at the scale for like TV
but for Facebook like if you can get the
idea or the point across with an ad very
concisely that works so you don't need
some wizard of video to come and spend
20 grand on an ad so let's just touch on
that because it's something that once
you have the science down you don't
really need to learn anymore and so kind
of break down your philosophy just real
quickly one quick Interruption to the
podcast today guys I know what we're
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little more advanced so I decided to
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find that in the link below but back to
the episode okay a few things I think
one is uh just generically speaking uh
the formula we have is we'll call it an
attention grabber at first okay so it
could be I see you've got like cash over
there could be that cash at the screen
right or something like that right like
something that you like got like for me
it'd be like get up to 100 or uh 1700
back on your social security check if
you're over the age of 65. so what I did
there is I gave you a really good
benefit statement that stopped the
scroll that got your attention that's
your headline that that could be I'm
using like a video let's say Okay video
like that might be the first three
seconds of my videos that's the hook I'm
trying to stop the scroll then I'm
trying to get in the qualifier if you're
over the age of 65 and you're on at
least two prescription meds I know that
you are I know that that's the age so
whatever that could be that could be a
guy if you're if you have back spasms
and have trouble sleeping let's use that
example right uh never have a poor
night's sleep again
um by by with this with this new chair
I'm just off the rep obviously if you
have it if you have back spasms and
struggle with back pain
um this is for you right so it's uh it's
the benefit it's the qualifier
then I get into
um the actual like what life was what
like before so and this is a lot of user
generated content so okay I'll have like
a senior talking they'll say you know
before I actually made the call I didn't
realize how much I was overpaying when I
went to the doctor my actual doctor that
I loved wasn't even in network for me
and I get into this story and it puts
them in like where they are right now
like before I even clicked on the ad
like I was sitting there I thought a lot
of stuff could be like scam I actually
even thought people were just like that
it was too good to be true right like I
put put people in their pain at that
point where they are today so again
without picking up five more minutes
that you get into the back pain where
before I felt like this it was
and you want the person you know
psychologically being like that's me
definitely then I I can bring it back to
life after so again it's it's it's well
if you have this you could get this the
money making my family on vacation
you're outgoing this and I've got my
call to action sprinkled in after so I
might it might literally look just 1700
back on your social security check if
you're over the age of 65 click this
link now and call the number and speak
some other than two minutes and they're
gonna help you before I called before I
felt this after now I feel this that's
like in just in the simplest terms like
how I would structure a video creative
for someone it's perfect because you
have the hook you get their attention
because everyone's scrolling that's the
fight the fight is attention but then
you immediately if they don't fit your
demographic want to get them off your ad
that says you're going to get charged
more so you'd say if you're 65 and over
they're like oh I am that person they're
not saying that out loud but thinking it
yeah and then you want ugc of someone
that demographic so they feel like
they're looking in a mirror like this
fits my demographic and then you're
speaking to their pain points like oh
this is actually the problem I have
that's right and they just object tackle
objections that's exactly right okay
that's science and that's exactly right
and a lot of those like even more
tactically like a lot of people ignore
like call Facebook ads or YouTube uh
sorry Facebook comments or YouTube
comments stuff like that like that to me
those are my objectives then I have to
overcome I love reading through those
like I've got a a relatively big organ
organization and like I still read our
Facebook comments because I learned so
much about Steve Wynn uh founder of wind
hotels in Vegas
um would spend a disproportionate amount
of time with the bellhop because they
were the Brew they were the first touch
with the customers felt he could learn
the most about his customer and how to
create an unbelievable experience by
talking to arguably one of the lowest
paid people in his organization because
they were the closest touch to the
customer huh that's interesting because
their people are going to come into the
hotel without any experience and then
they're going to have their own
preconception of what this place is like
what the brand is like and so they
probably tell the bellhop oh I've heard
this place is this without experiencing
it and you can take that just side note
that's how my YouTube titles yeah I'll
read the podcast cast like the first
hour and they'll be like wow I learned
so much about this thing and I'm like oh
and I'll change the title like
immediately I love it and so so paying
attention to that if you're running
Facebook ads or organically you've got
YouTube comments like paying attention
to those reservations because they're
the the customer demographics giving you
the answers as to why they didn't buy
something or why they didn't watch more
whatever it is so really understanding
those is super helpful in in creating
that and then I can't stress enough like
people love to be told what to do yeah
um so the the call to action is very
important as well so I find I find a lot
of times
um you know people go create an awesome
ad or picture all this and there's not a
lot of Direction click this link right
now like our retargeting ads will
literally even be hey you saw our video
why didn't you call and they're like
pause and be like
call now that's good what are you doing
yeah and that's interesting and it
creates a little tension and it creates
a lip but but it's like very direct and
it's telling which like you need to call
it's like so you ask that question why
didn't you call yeah like you literally
said wow that's cool that's clever call
now click the link
why didn't you click it yet you're still
watching what do you mean and then you
know and and we get it maybe it's
because you feel like it's this it's a
maybe it's because you feel like it's
too expensive
your subjection tackling in the ads
exactly right yeah and then and then
again it okay so
why aren't you click the link now yeah
do it and they're like looking for it
now as an example so so those call to
actions are and it matters on your
demographic right like I'm talking like
seniors so maybe not like well they're
probably struggling to find it so you
want to say it twice you don't want them
to get distracted there needs to be one
action that they can take no question
that's exactly right and maybe like a
bizop type thing yeah it's a little you
can be a little bit more like you're not
trying to be a millionaire or what
what's the problem you know yeah talk to
your demographic that's so funny but
these but it works though yeah but these
different these different call to
actions of telling someone what to do I
can't stress that help are you saying it
like twice like go to taking the website
name then click the link below or are
you only saying like
because people like different forms of
call to actions like some people like to
type in the domain some people actually
click will you say multiple I I'm
usually pointing we're usually pointing
to like what that and and thing I want
is like okay if it was like a chair I
wouldn't be just like click the link I
might I might test click the link but a
lot of it's like you need to like get
this chair immediately like go buy the
chair they have a 30-day money-back
guarantee there's no risk to you buy the
chair like you've got to be tired of
having those back stuff I know you I was
there before like I bought the chair you
need to buy the shoes so this is
psychology the priming of the called out
find them for what I actually want them
to do so I know I was saying click the
link but I'll probably like in my case
it's call call and there's a middle
ground right because that's where you
get paid and there's a middle ground
especially as an affiliate there's a
middle ground because I get paid on the
call but I needed to back into a
tolerable acquisition tolerance yeah man
partner so I can throttle like click the
link and call versus enroll and yeah
there's ultimately a healthy healthy
metal wrap somewhere in there
but you'll just test it I'll test it but
there so I would I would test the
different levels because it's saying
someone go buy the chair right now the
your click's gonna be more expensive and
you arguably could have an overall lower
cost per acquisition but you want to
test that against just check out the
site go check out the site right so
you'll test these everything and you
might get 50 Cent
um you know clicks through their
conversory slower but netnet it's more
profitable or maybe it's more expensive
so just testing those higher intent
versus lower intent call to actions I
think I think
watch the last 10 minutes like three
times because that is more valuable than
any ads course or equally as valuable
and it's free on YouTube that was
awesome but just two quick things I had
how do you find ugc for 65 year olds
dude it's it's uh you're actually gonna
laugh at this some of my best user
generated content is Craigslist if it's
actually it's actually putting the right
demographic of the problem so like back
for the chairs thing I would put a
Craigslist ad on there say with looking
for a company spokesperson that has
severe back pain that's it so then my
all my applicants come in and they have
a lot of back pain and so they're my
actual real demographic with the problem
so for me you know 65 is again it'd be
like I'm looking for a 65 year old that
has Medicare Advantage right now and
pays at least 400 a month out of pocket
like as an example like that's my that's
my actual customer and so many times my
ugc will actually like enroll in my
product like though like like they'll do
the the spokes I'll call the
spokesperson video versus a ugc it's a
little bit little little bit softer
let's talk about and they'll actually be
like after the filming they'll be like
hey like can I actually
call for the product I'm like yeah dude
do it and we'll literally film the call
okay go right there and film it and
they'll literally actually enroll I'm
like dude no pressure If you don't want
to like but they're like this is
actually better this is actually perfect
for me so I'll actually get my actual
demographic and then on top of that back
to the Facebook and YouTube comments
some of my best ugc comes from having an
Outreach to those people so someone who
said that they called or something they
said they rolled or for you they I love
this hour-long video like I would hit
those people up and be like hey would
you ever do like a a quick testimonial
video for me just on your cell phone no
big deal just like talking about like
how much you loved it or why you watched
my style for like just tell me about
your life like things like that and I
might have like a six minute ugc and
I'll cut it we'll cut it down to 30
second chunks of like actual usable
content nice but I give no Direction so
it's very authentic good it's my actual
demographic someone who enrolled or
bought the chair in this analogy and I'm
reaching back out and listen you could
offer 20 Amazon gift card for them to do
it so you could have incentives but so
many times someone actually liked the
chair and this analogy I don't have a
but someone liked the chair and if I'm
like hey will you help other people that
like had the back pain that you don't
anymore and we just drew like on your
cell phone just talking about like how
you felt where you're at like I give a
little bit of guidance but like okay
what do you want me to say whatever
literally whatever just talk for as long
as you want I get a five minute uh cell
phone video back and someone that's my
highest performing creative huh and are
you using these like retargeting ads
then no I use it for cold too yeah do
you have like a formula that you've like
tested like
first ad how many retargeting ads yeah
or anything like that it's um it's I'm
um put an asterisk on this because as an
affiliate where you lose a lot is
attribution so I really need to convert
someone do you use high-ris have you
ever heard of hiros I have not actually
no I just never heard of hiros no oh
it's ad tracking almost like like a
private company that's solely dedicated
to ad tracking Alex Becker's company
that's awesome
um so a lot of attributions so a lot of
times so no no I'll I'll check it out
for sure thanks for that
um but uh and I'll be curious if this
works for this because if they did they
saw something really important but if
I'm I own Chair Company you're my
affiliate you send someone to chair
company's website like I don't get the
pixel lemon retarget them at least in my
experience it repex them or in my case
someone called they always spoke for two
minutes they didn't enroll I don't get
to where you can't put a UTM link on top
of the UTM link a tracking link is that
what you're saying uh so I can't cookie
them based on them actually landing on
the website or what actions it took even
better I can't I can't retarget someone
who added something to cart gotcha like
that so I don't know for sure about that
then and maybe you can maybe you can
retarget someone cold but I'm guessing
you can't retarget someone who like
added to cart I don't know that's it but
anyway all that to be said like an
affiliate marketing you really have to
be uh convert them cold actually so the
retargeting traffic is off of like a
three second plus because you don't have
access to add like a code in their
header yeah I can't add some of the
United Healthcare website gotcha so but
if they opt in you can do it on your
funnel but okay sure so yeah I had my
funnel I see what you're saying which is
a whole nother topic we can get it makes
sense so overall historically where
we've converted a high percentage of our
stuff on cold traffic if I own my own
e-commerce company or something like
that that'd be a wildly different yeah
yeah okay that makes sense it's still
good insight for people okay so then
just last thing about the ad creative is
it a typically a video of like record a
video with their picture and there's
text on the screen or like slideshow
style or you know um we test everything
we've ran and tested both
um generically speaking especially if
you're talking lead generation service
um you're getting a much higher quality
customer who's been through a video
because I've been
um they've had to put a little more
intent than just an image so if I had an
image of a 65 year old holding cash like
and they click through so a little bit
lower and 10 than someone who's watched
45 seconds of a video right
um so we run both but generically
speaking of video is going to be higher
quality which is good because again if
your customer tells you they have a 600
acquisition tolerance and they're
enrolling 10 of those
um you know you're getting paid 60 bucks
per versus if I'm enrolling one percent
of those my payout's much much lower
which again I'd always prefer to be the
Rolls Royce for the Mercedes-Benz versus
the Toyota Camry not I used to have a
toy nothing they Mass produce a car cost
versus a premium product handcrafted
yeah I'd rather be getting I'd rather
have so much more margin on a 60 sale or
phone call in my case than a ten dollar
call or something but
can you break what were you saying six
hundred dollars
I was basically saying like let's say I
put someone through and I'm just going
to use generics this isn't every time
but a video campaign let's say that
quality is that one out of ten people
buy the chair
and a 10 conversion rate I now getting
paid call it um sixty dollars every
website visitor in that silly scenario
versus the image I might have a one
percent conversion rate so I might get
paid six dollars so you're just breaking
down the math even though technically
you still you get six hundred dollars
and for me that's important because I if
you're doing lead generation no you're
not paying quicker I'm getting paid per
lead but it has to bake into acquisition
tolerance gotcha So eventually let's do
call let's do that so it takes 10 phone
calls to enroll someone they're paying
me six dollars a phone call
versus if it takes
um you know one one percent or whatever
it is ten uh my mouse like a hundred
phone calls let's say it takes 100 phone
calls I'm only getting paid six dollars
phone call okay sixty dollars per phone
call and I'd rather always play I have
six dollars worth of margin to drive a
phone call because I don't I don't think
the image ad is driving customers at one
tenth the cost and they're enrolling at
one time gotcha yeah so technically you
get only get paid whenever you sign up a
person but since you have all the data
you break it down to how many calls is
leading to someone who's a sale so yes I
know so I'm I'm generically speaking
getting paid every time I drive a lead
so a call gotcha but but I know that if
it's too low quality they'll eventually
drop my payout or turn me off gotcha hey
dude your shit's not so it still matters
yeah so it still matters so indirectly
it's just getting the cat differently
I'm getting paid every time they enroll
someone and that's for any Legion
including e-commerce they're getting
paid fifty dollars a chair purchase it's
still a lifetime value baked into yep if
the advertisers
the right partner there's a lifetime
value baked into that so you want to
send them someone who's going to buy
five chairs and also the pillow and also
the eye mask make them shut up they're
gonna buy all this up because then they
can pay you
eighty dollars of a chair purchase
because they know that the lifetime
value of your customers are really high
so it all bakes into that in my opinion
the life tolerable acquisition costs of
the lifetime value is really what you
need on and by the way getting to the
you need to understand what their
lifetime value is and what their true
tolerable acquisition costs could you
break down what you mean by tolerable
like tolerate what a this is what they
the expectation they're setting for you
um so if I've got a hundred dollar chair
and uh let's say I own the chair company
and my
um employee salaries based works out to
be cost me ten dollars per share for my
employees whatever it is I've got a
multi-million dollar company but I know
my my employees salary it cost me my my
cost of goods sold is ten dollars for
for the employees it's forty dollars for
the actual raw material now I'm down to
50 it's another ten dollars
whatever okay or something like that so
I've got forty dollars I can really put
towards marketing where I can actually
profitably acquire customers I actually
spent seventy dollars for that hundred
dollar chair I'm upside down and I'm
bleeding I'm losing money because I've
got more costs other than just my
marketing costs that go into my profit
and quality so understanding what their
true margin is profit margin
understanding their their growth yeah
their profit margin is understanding
where their margin is and now if you
said hey what's your margin they're
never going to tell you right but if I
said things like a tolerable acquisition
cost or if I said ah lifetime value that
this person's worth to you okay so you
enroll them at 50 bucks a month how long
do they stay on they stay on for 10
months on average okay so they're worth
500 bucks
in my head I'm doing yeah they buy other
products or is it just this no no they
buy another product it's a one-time 100
sale so they don't know they're giving
you the equation here yes I'm getting
600. now uh and I might not do this in
one sitting now
um the actual cost like like how much
does a chair cost like um like is that
is it it's got to be expensive it's a
nice chair dude like it's only like 50
bucks to produce the check okay got it
got it right and I'm like getting this
data and maybe it's not exact but you
told me you could only afford 50 for a
chair I just found out your lifetime
value is 600 the chair itself costs 50
bucks so somewhere between 50 and 550
you can afford to pay me so it's my job
to push to push the limits on that and a
lot of that comes from again like like
sales back to psychology so now I'm
dude we found this great pocket of
customers that will take the upsell and
I think I can scale it but the promise
it's costing me seventy dollars seventy
dollars every single time to acquire
and I'm upside down and I I gotta pause
that campaign so I don't know if are you
guys in growth mode is that I don't I'm
not trying to be greedy like is that is
that a thing you know and no okay you
know what let me ask my boss because we
do want more we do want more chair sales
and then approves the 70. okay now I
know that you can get up 70. you know
what I mean so dude
so smart I don't think you guys if
you're like a beginner don't understand
how genius that is but that is why the
relationship that he's building is so
important because they're all going to
tell you on the outside and a lot of
these lower level employees that you're
working with just follow the rule book
that's given to them from their boss but
you know there's flexibility that's
exactly and so if you can build the
relationship start getting a little more
piece of information you get confidence
on what you can ask for yes and then if
you're doing a good job they're gonna
move the needle for you and you nailed
it like I'm starting with a junior level
account manager yeah who really doesn't
give a for the most part I don't
know like you said the beginning if they
don't care yeah show up they make
whatever it is 40 Grand a year and
there's nothing that's not talking crap
on anything about that but and they
punch in and they don't care not all of
them but some
my job is to get to the middle manager
senior manager to the CMO to the CEO how
fast can I actually have a monthly
meeting with the CEO that's what I want
to get and that's my end goal for even
United Healthcare a freaking
multi-billion dollar Goliath I want to
become enough of a partner with them
that I actually speak to the CEO because
then I can actually have a real
strategic business conversation versus I
was given an Excel spreadsheet I can pay
50 bucks a chair that's really it but
when I make pushes and I talk in their
language and also backed up psychology
understanding how do they make money
right and again I don't blindly say how
did you get paid right hey I got a
question for you my buddy's applying for
a cal manager job do you guys um like do
number sales matter for you or like what
do you get like looked at because I want
to make you look good like right however
I can make you look good like my job at
the end of the day is to make you look
good so that you guys can grow and we
can create a partnership and oh you know
actually get judged based on chair sale
number chair soul
I got it so then I'm always able to talk
in terms of them again back back to
marketing we can we can sell 1 000
shares a day like is what I'm trying to
get to to 1 000 so now I'm talking in
terms where they're now paying attention
to what you're saying but I have to
understand what what you know with them
what's in it for them you know what's
how can you make them look good to their
boss like exactly right that's it I
understand that I can talk in terms of
that I can have business strategic
conversations around what looks good to
them and then listen it's different at
every level because the the actual
senior senior managers will focus on
margin or something like that something
but this guy's focused on volume I can
if I can sell him on the vision of how
much volume we can do together I can get
paid more I can get better terms I can
learn more they could even I've even
gotten big 500 million dollar companies
to giving me give me their customer list
so I can run a look-alike campaign off
their actual customer list like that's
how integrated I have been with Partners
that's smart
who the hell has that strategic yeah I
had tens of thousands of customers that
I literally uploaded the Excel
spreadsheet to Facebook and I said one
percent lookalike of these people hello
where everyone else is running a
demographic campaign based on people
feeling right some that's a very Rarity
but that's just that's an extreme but
that is like the edge if you can get
there get edges because now I know what
they care about
I know I know how I'm now getting roped
into conversations with Senior
Management because I'm making enough
noise and you know all these things so
this me personally you're asking me
within my lead generation business it's
sold it was about six years old
the first year and a half
year to year and a half I was intimately
involved here last four and a half years
I was intimately involved here don't get
me wrong I still uh focus on the
strategy here but I had really great uh
media buyers and I hired really great
people to do this even at the size
company we were doing over a million
customers a year for these big Partners
I was still a point of contact for a lot
of my partners and it's not because I
couldn't get myself out of the weeds
it's because this was the highest value
activity very high leverage this was the
highest value activity for me to be
focused on not that and again that's a
naive statement for where where we are
today the beginning I get it that's what
you're focused on I get it but all I'm
trying to say is
don't have your time allocation to be 99
and one yeah once you master this you
have hundreds of thousands of customers
you move this by ten dollars that's an
extra million dollars and even at the
beginning though dude if you're costing
you 60 bucks to drive this chair company
if I can get paid 70 automatically I'm
off to your ads are probably getting
paid 50. yeah so again let's choose a 70
30 split out of the gate 70 on your ass
30 on this that that's my ask it's not
what I'm being dramatic and it's easy to
watch this and be like you know that's
the other thing I think is interestingly
we talked about like mentors like where
are people giving you advice from their
current frame of the world like if if
you focus on what I'm doing today it's
actually not what serves you best from
zero you have to learn that skill you
can't skip this part it's advice is
it's actually bad they fight me yeah for
how you go from you know from 25 million
to 50 million to 100 million dollar
business is much different activity than
from zero to a million dollars right in
business so the advice you're getting
from this guy doesn't actually apply
here at all so so to bring it back to
like actual application processes from
zero to a million
in Revenue let's call it your zero to a
hundred thousand uh 70 80 on ads but
20 30 on Advertiser and it's just far
too often that it's 100 and zero or 99
and one percent here and that that's my
that's my ask for people listening is
that that split right for you you really
mastered this part the if you guys don't
remember where we're going left and
right here this is like running at the
actual marketing side you kind of
mastered that when you were running the
traditional retainer based agency and
then once you got company like I can
deliver results you went to affiliate
marketing so you can get results and you
focus on relationships so you can get
higher margin and that's where like the
millions of dollars are made on the
extremities when you have an edge and
that is how you get to the extremity
basically by focusing on that
relationship and my only thing
understanding that this only a lot is
that 20 30 even from day one on the
advertiser at that time was my my
customers paying me on my right I did
always have a twenty Thirty forty
percent allocation of time towards that
I just I just don't see and again today
might be 95 of my time allocation
towards that I just I don't see it in
agencies I don't sit like so much of the
time time allocation is how do I become
better at running ads and media and I
think that's awesome I think that should
be the majority but I did it should not
be 100 of your time what's interesting
is how we started this conversation
about accountability for yourself and
results for your customer you're
basically this is this person's job at
the company at a huge company to like
get more sales and to grow the affiliate
marketing you're basically doing their
job for them at that point that's right
that's really cool to think about it
that way to take accountability for
their job make them look good and
they'll give you everything that's
exactly that's really clever okay so now
that's the ad side in the relationship
side which is probably the most valuable
thing I've heard on this podcast for me
personally right now so thank you
seriously thank you but moving into
let's say they click on your ad are you
sending them through a funnel or do you
just straight up send them to a call
Page you know uh so my funnel is a call
Page um so it basically like might be
like a excuse me like a short um the
backup depending on the intent level the
ad is going to change the entire I'm
going to throttle and test the intent
level on the landing page okay for
instance if I were to run a image of a
senior holding up cash and they were to
come and all they see is a big phone
number in this call here yeah I'm gonna
get a lot of phone calls they're going
to be horrible quality it's going to be
very bad for my Advertiser my my payouts
are going to come down they're going to
turn me off
people are going to be confused a bad
consumer experience on the inverse if I
said a video ad I said you have to
enroll here and then you put them
through a 100 question survey
before I show them the phone number
people that call are probably going to
roll right away but I'm going to get two
people to do that so I have no scale
it's not a profitable it doesn't make
any sense to you so all that to be said
is it fits somewhere in the middle and
that's what will throttle is essentially
the intent of the individual along the
funnel so if they came in low intent I
may test a little bit more High intent
of like just say taking them through a
20 question or a 10 question
um questionnaire that maybe doesn't have
anything to do are you a U.S citizen yes
or no are you over the age of 65 well I
know they are because that's when I
targeted yes or no and I'm actually
having them add intent yeah so they're
getting more buy-in right and then
they're getting more bought in
so um so all that to be said is I'll
throttle the intent on the pages but
before I show a call to action after I
show a call to action but I will say the
common theme is I always have and you
you're the one who actually said it the
benefit statement like most of my
marketing has nothing to do with the
actual uh X's and O's of what the
product was like I remember we had a
weight loss clinic
um customer this is going back nine ten
years ago and the biggest headline was
it's not your fault that was one of the
best headlines I've ever written it's
not your fault so people overweight I
said it's not your fault why because I
understand my demographic understand
what they were now do I totally believe
in that statement not really like
yeah you know okay like you could work
out eat healthy you and I are in good
shape like there's a lot more to it but
I really empathize with my customer and
then I talked a lot about the benefit
statements on looking good feeling
healthy energy being able to pick up
their kids being they being when they're
older having being active all these
things that I that right I'm just I'm
just kind of spitting stuff on the
benefit but
I never talked about
you're gonna go meet with the doctor
first and he's gonna sit you down and
they're gonna do a nutrition plan and
it's the best doctor he's gonna do a
great nutrition plan with you and it's
going to break down your Macros and then
from there you're going to get a lesson
plan on how to work out and you're going
to go three times sounds like homework
I've never really talked about the
actual products very much like even the
chair example if you gave like or that I
I might sprinkle in some stuff it's this
this special that that but I'm not real
I'm not like there's a thousand count
fiber on the chair I'm talking about why
the hell you want the charity look cool
you want to feel good whatever those
things are so I will say throughout my
you're talking about my actual landing
pages and funnels I'm very heavily
answering reservations like we mentioned
so I'm getting in their head before they
they even say oh this feels expensive
like I'm already hating that reservation
dead on at that point and then I'm
talking all about the different benefits
and if I'm doing it really well I've
targeted my messaging and my messaging
is congruent with the different benefits
statement so the guy who's got back pain
got targeted because he had back pain so
saw the ad only because I I
demographically targeted him on back
pain my ad talked about back pain but my
landing page talked about back pain he
bought because of back pain I didn't buy
because it had gold plates all right
whereas the guy who's maybe let's call
it the ego I'm just being funny the ego
original I targeted I've talked about
and my landing page is congruent with
that so that's when I've gotten really
good is what I'm saying are you uh
a mid 20 year old in the Arizona that
runs a great YouTube channel and podcast
that's really it like you're like that's
freaking me like that's when I'm done
really good is when I yeah my marketing
messaging to my different that was
probably the biggest Revelation for me
my beginning day is like I had a client
that was like a beauty salon they did
Nails lip injections liposuction all
this stuff and they're just trying to
send traffic to a website where it's all
of it like you just need to run an ad of
people who want lip injections to a
landing page offering lip injections to
scheduling an offer of lip injections
that's the easiest way to do it or the
best way to do it so I had a question
regarding your I guess pre-qualification
process if you guys didn't understand
what he was doing with the questionnaire
as you're trying to get people to put
enough skin in the game or enough effort
in we're the only people willing to go
through that really have the problem and
then once they've done that work they
feel like kind of obligated to even show
up to the call or to actually call sure
and they're more qualified in a way so
you're trying to find a balance you
don't do 100 questions because that's
too much work but you don't want to do
no questions because then it's people
who want like lazy Solutions so
is are your landing pages are you first
off what are you using to build landing
pages and is that type form for your
applications or what are you doing no I
don't there's actually a lot of our
stuff's custom built but there's so many
off off the shelf really so you can that
you're Landing like you have like a
WordPress developer PHP WordPress yes so
it's built on on WordPress and exactly
it's all it's all custom custom code
from this point but uh mostly that's for
flexibility and listen there there's
some uh unbelievable products out there
that um
may even be cheaper or simpler or
anything like that we I've just
so you're having videos made by a team
that you're hiring and then you're
building the websites custom correct and
then you're just using traditional like
Google pixels or Facebook pixels to trap
okay I'm buying media with a national ad
platform yeah I know there's third party
yeah it's complicated but um and then
they might be great but from for our
business that that's how we we run it
and I was gonna make another comment oh
I was gonna say a really good place to
look is not your like the most
competitive Industries like I love
looking at like DUI attorneys like
like that that like some of the best I
go where the best marketers flock I
don't necessarily run ads there I'm not
like I do I compete with the best of the
best I'm not trying to be a cool guy I'm
but like they've got some really good
that's what you're learning from
I'm learning them yeah I mean a lot from
not even my industry I'm learning from
other Industries and back to you're
talking about the intent my dude one of
the best exercises you could do is go
try and buy a car those guys have
mastered what are you talking about as
far as they intent you walk in there you
go how much is this car if he's a good
salesperson he goes wow hold
what are you looking for tell me about
you right you're there for six
hours you might end up you're like screw
it I'll pay it right like a two-hour
webinar that's that's dramatic right and
listen it's it's less because you're
there in person versus like you know
what you can hit an ax so there's a
balance but but um that that's an
awesome annoying sales process to go
through just to understand what we were
talking about as far as Intent no 100 I
walked in a lot and said how much for
that Mercedes they said 50 granting on
that walk the other way what if I drove
it got seat massagers yeah I did the
whole thing right now I went through it
and then
you broke it down that is 50 only
all right yeah okay maybe you know with
financing you only need five thousand
down today and and don't take that so
literally because I don't think you put
someone through a two-hour webinar or
I'm not the 100 no I know then the
question but just just to play with the
seat as far as intent isn't is important
and split testing and throttle I don't
know they ever heard anyone split
testing and throttling like intent
across the funnel that's really
important to throttle out and split test
that based on how low of intent and how
high of intent which economics will work
best for your Advertiser your attitude
and dude I'm sorry I forgot the actual
question I went back that was a better
answer that's all that's all I know but
more so than what's just I guess the
last question on this website so you're
doing questionnaires have you ever
tested like a a short webinar a vsl any
sort like videos like you're trust
building your Authority building years
ago we ran we were doing an info product
and we did we did a webinar and uh
admittedly I think we had less than 100
Grand spend so I I I'm there's far
better people to ask for that okay cool
yeah I guess Insurance isn't doesn't
make as much sense everyone kind of
understands what it is you don't have to
teach them that much and it could it
could potentially um we haven't tested
but this is straight up like once again
on the landing page they have to opt in
like do they put their email in first
and then they get the questionnaire
and I use that as an example so we've
We've ran long from auditorials for sure
which is like an advert editorial I've
never heard of that it's a um think of
it like a um you're reading like a
newspaper article type kind of thing so
we'll talk about
oh is this is this long for advert yes
okay yeah yeah but go ahead and explain
it yeah yeah it's long form so
essentially there's a lot of tax copy on
it so you'd send someone from uh
Facebook ad to your landing page and 10
000 characters right and there's a
middle ground truth there too right
where it could feel like a normal like
Yahoo finance article right where it's
maybe got you know uh 2 000 characters
or whatever whatever it is on it but
it's really all taxed and it can be
written as a third party so you could be
third party endorsing the chair it could
be a first party could be a customer's
review about the chair and it's and it's
long form so that you're really going
through like all the sales psychology
like testimonial social proof all of it
and a lot of it's exactly what you
talked about than text copy we'll do
that we just test that you'll spit test
with like yes no questions or this are
you listen through that and honestly for
us because we're into end goal is to
drive a phone call
um a lot of it is that the Clone action
is just the phone like immediately call
this phone number and and that works
people actually call the number right
out there and I didn't even actually
capture information
so no email drift campaigns needed just
straight up and and I would say on that
too A lot of times like
um and this is a biased comment because
I'm so used to like I call it telephony
phone calls and stuff like that
but um I would actually get to interview
garyvee which was really yeah it was
super cool and one of the things he made
a huge case to was I'm not saying dead
female but he's like dude text message
marketing yeah SMS right now is big
and I sent a text
the next week my team took maybe 20
minutes to load up we texted all of our
old customers I think we literally made
175 000 in the first hour and like now
just like literally like one tax no
sequence the thing is called twilio it's
on their phone yeah twilio and they just
went you know we just hit it we sent it
was like one sentence and then called
the number and it was like it like
freaking made so much money so so we
started captioning more phone numbers
and text messaging and essentially put
him through a sequence and stuff like
that but I would I would I would I would
touch on if someone's like putting a lot
of effort again towards the email like
just like a poke is like text messages I
think there's like a 90 plus percent
open rate I don't know you I've opened
every text I've ever got oh yeah just to
get it off my 100 yeah 90 open rate
which is not even close to email and
then the response rate I think I don't
I'm making up numbers you can fact check
me there's like at least for us we had
like a 10 all in rate which is like
really good that's email a good click
through it's like three percent and the
opener is only 40. so it's insane I just
want to add context here for everyone
listening they're in marketing there's
so much Nuance you have to understand
your demographic and so the reason I
asked about via cells or videos because
I'm maybe more in the info product world
and then but he has an older demographic
in this example and those older people
may like to read because they're used to
reading the newspaper and so that's
native to them and then they prefer to
call and so SMS is better than email and
so you have to be intentional with those
is it email is it text is it both
probably both but whatever like you have
to really think through your Target
demographic and what's natural to them
you know I'll say you were you were
talking about like um kind of edges or
like what other people aren't doing and
and you're like don't do your own horn
I like there's a term called method
actor I don't remember her in this but
it's basically like
like um uh what's his name who played
The Joker Heath Ledger like actually I
think actually actually like committed
suicide because he was so weird playing
his rules yeah so much he drove himself
actually crazy like it was joke I'm like
I'm a method actor when it comes to the
stuff huh so like we ran something in uh
people getting out of credit card debt
and I actually like defaulted on bills
to understand what it felt like to be a
consumer in credit card debt I like I
wouldn't necessarily recommend that like
my credit score got hit and all this
stuff but like and this is this is years
and years ago like you could have paid
it but you just chose to go you just
wanted to go through the process I
wanted to feel how it felt like to be my
consumer who I was talking to who was oh
my God and like even now we'll go back
to senior demographic like I volunteer
in like group homes assisted living
homes retirement homes I spend a lot of
time on my demographic a lot of time
that's the only way I think I could
actually understand these people in any
demographic even if I I guess if I'm not
my own demographic is a good way to say
it but like right like that's the only
way I can really really like I'll give
you a perfect example
I didn't understand like people in in
debt credit card debt are very real if
excuse me a group Catholic convert a
religious and I didn't put two and two
together it's actually there's a lot of
biblical around you're a slave to your
creditors and and
don't be saved your creditor right how
bad debt is for you right would have
never thought of that being a religious
angle I'd partner with one of the
largest mega churches and ran ads to
their congregation and it converted like
wildfire because because that
demographic was so ashamed baby or just
as maybe built in a little more into
their psyche aware to not be in debt all
that to be said fun and fun cool cute
analogy that's or a real life example
but point being is like I only got that
spending a lot I actually would
literally call my customers and say and
this is now at this point like running
tens of millions of dollars business I
still get on the phone with my customers
and say hey just conducting a quick
survey you mind if I have a few minutes
with you back to the Steve win example I
stole that page at his Playbook
and this lady kept saying thank God God
and God I prayed thank God God it just
got me curious and I was interested and
I only had that Insight because I took
the time to spend time with my Democrat
if you're not calling back your
customers even if you're an affiliate
calling them messaging them on Facebook
if you're not going to the retirement
home spending time with a senior or
whatever that is you you couldn't you
you will never ever have the creative
awareness to actually talk in their
language back to the chair example that
I just can't
that was so damn insightful for me like
you just shifted my mind completely but
I'm so glad you live in Arizona dude
hell yeah that anyone listening to this
you have to understand like
these are million he's running a
millions millions of dollars worth of a
company and this is the level of depth
you have that he's going to to hit that
absorb that internalize it and action
that because it's not as simple as click
and Link on ClickBank throwing up a
quick quick click funnel and then doing
that if you want to go this far with
your business and so that level of I
call it Psychopathic intentions is what
it takes to be a top performing person
so that's awesome dude really appreciate
you sharing that on here and that's
completely free my guy what a nice guy
but okay
I totally forgot the train of thoughts
out that was like I was fully in that
moment I'm sorry but that was really
cool okay so
okay here we go your company was doing
millions of dollars of Revenue yes so
what this is just for me because I'm
kind of like on that level and wanting
to scale to where you went so
what size was your team and like how did
you kind of like organize yeah
departments in a way it's actually uh
really really lean team so we had at um
call it um
we had 16 full-time employees at scale
and called another 10 to 12 Off the
Bench if you will so was this in Arizona
sorry contractors uh half the team was
in Arizona okay it's about how I'm using
round numbers but uh the core team was
in Arizona so
I love the idea of remote work like we
talked about too
um I have a thesis that if someone's
like uh for me like a senior level or
like a core individual I should want to
like see feel here touch them like I
want to write it close enough or we
could go over dinner and
right so that's a good way to put it so
um currently and pretty quickly like
anyone who was of
um a high level strategic value is local
to me
um and I like that and I prefer that
that's not always necessarily like uh
tangible if you're just getting started
out but that that to me is a holy grail
and listen we don't have we haven't had
an office since 2019. sometimes we go to
a coffee shop right probably Monday
through Thursday I bet I see them for
three or four hours yeah a day so 16
hours a week just best hours of the day
so yeah
like that's enough for me right um so
I'm not tied down they're not tied down
we still work remote everyone gets a job
done so that's your question I had a
um tell you the beginning and then today
so uh beginning I had myself I was doing
everything like I'm sure a lot of people
are running yeah I was talking to
customers doing everything
um quickest thing I hired for
is and this is me practicing what I
preached I hired a junior media buyer so
some of this is my affiliate business
Junior media buyer who could kind of
watch under me and and kind of like
learn and I'm a big proponent of show
and watch and monitor so I show them how
to do it over extended period of time
could be a month or whatever it is a
couple weeks then I let them do and I
watch very closely so I'd let them
launch a couple campaigns from a couple
hundred bucks and I'd watch and we'd go
back in and I'd oh we missed this and
then and then having at scale you have a
monitoring in place so you have I get
daily reports of how much revenue profit
spend we had things like that our
quality metrics that we're watching so
now I've got the kpis that I'm watching
and I'm monitoring but that's not all in
a week that's you know or overtime so I
had a junior level
and um what I started doing is the
Strategic elements of the ads it's up I
would lay out and he would carry out the
grunt work carry out the grunt work
until I filled him up then I got then I
I went from part time for him to full
time I brought him on that is he got
more literate I would have him do more
and more of the actual building out the
campaigns and I'd watch again too and I
kind of put the the structure and then
get more and more strategic so
essentially if you're if you're noticing
I'm like
trying to be insanely aware of what the
highest value activity I could be
working on and I'm trying to delegate
from the lowest value so we'll keep her
assistant and bookkeeper with my first
two hires right it was easy for me I
didn't like doing it she was doing the
that I did me too by the way
exactly and those are easy hires wins
not as when you're a marketer and you
love to run ads right and you have to
download where I'm at yeah that's where
it was like it was it was and it wasn't
a challenge anything other than
psychologically it was like getting
things off my plate that I like to do
but it wasn't the highest value activity
and I had a uh I think a revelation for
me that might be helpful is I think it's
Warren Buffett spends like and he has is
that just because he's old because
you're always old now but it's like I
think he's like one meeting a day and
that's been for like decades where he
just like stares at the wall and thinks
and I started blocking a time in my
calendar to think I put two hours of
thinking time the first kind of like all
right what the am I doing and the
next time your school I describe I'm
like okay no phone next yeah right like
all right Bone's the killer not that
next time okay okay why but you know and
and you get better at actually
strategically putting time to think down
and I had a joke with my upper
management team it's not really a joke I
said when we've gotten good is when you
guys aren't doing anything all day long
you're staring at a wall like that was
our end goal was for them to do nothing
and just to think and it's like huh how
interesting of that is that versus like
trying to slave drive someone for 90
hours right and we have to get our
done on being funny with that statement
but it's actually true like I want a lot
100 a lot of my day and you or anyone
listening is entrepreneur the quicker
you can get to
I had a summer one time poked me really
hard I had it was making a ton of money
I was doing great I had a team yeah I'm
an entrepreneur he's like no you're not
and I was like yes I am he's like no
you're not I was like what do you mean
it's like you've built yourself a job
and what a ego poke that one
right I wasn't an entrepreneur an
entrepreneur someone who owns the
business works on the business not in
the business where you could go
disappear for a month in the business
I was like oh all right I I'm a
good employee of myself and it was like
really like actually the the the
labeling that I needed to get me to the
next level was like I'm not an
entrepreneur and so I'm doing that so
anyway so
no it's really important it's a
perspective shift people brag about I
work 80 hours a week I'm like that kind
of shows that you're not doing a good
job on your business right and you
haven't delegated right and it's
unhealthy uh there's just there's so
many things but they think they're like
cool for it and I'm like you're kind of
telling the smart people you don't know
what you're doing and it's funny you'll
you'll um you'll find my richest
smartest Friends Ask how many employees
you have and the last number I say the
bigger the flex yeah how big is your
office I don't have an office
that's cool you know like whereas like
when I was coming up you're like I have
30 employees I'm the man dude 20 000
square foot office right and that
doesn't mean don't have employees right
that consent that was the old way of
Leverage but in our Modern Age you can
that's exactly right that's just cool so
anyway so if I go back it's uh
tactically speaking I I how I got how I
got out of that because I think that's
more beneficial than where I am today
actually if I
let me let me break down your question
in like two sentences I hired for I
didn't like to do right
that would assist in a bookkeeper I
didn't like it easy then I started
hiring for for things that I like to do
but I knew were not the highest value
activity how I arrived at that is I had
a this is so simplistic I had a notebook
next to me
and I had an alarm go off every 15
minutes and I would write what I did
what I was working on at that time and I
would write it and I write it I write it
like not just email emailing who reading
what doing what and then at the end of
the day and I only did that for a couple
days and looked back
and so much of my time is spent
actually building out these campaigns or
responding to emails or oh I got
distracted and I read for two out two
hours on that I didn't need to be
doing and I got very tactical with my
life like very deliberate with my time
and it was only doing that like a monkey
15 minutes later and then I could start
circling things that I knew I shouldn't
have been do so that was very easy for
for me to have him start building out
campaigns I would set kind of the
structure our bill at the structure he'd
actually go these audiences with this
with us with this then I got it to be
more strategy
and I got it to where he could run ads
by himself and I would watch in and I
and I lowered my time less and less
smart slightly though and I think
another good
um Chef for people is someone said if
you could hire someone 80 of the good of
you that that that's that's the goal
that was helpful for me because no one's
gonna be as good as you dude you're the
guy who's gonna make all the money be
the entrepreneur right you're the guy
who cares the most you're the one
working 100 hours at the beginning
putting up your money like no one is
going to be as good as good as you
shouldn't say no one probably not though
so for me looking for people as good as
me I'd be like I can do that better no
dude no so that's not gonna
stop saying I could do that better say
but could he do it 70 80 as good as me
and go
like that was the goal and so it was a
lot easier to to scale and to pull
myself out of the day-to-day because
that was the goal so it was a lot easier
to frame it that way and then I was able
delegate more and more and more and
until eventually where uh again I was
still helping on the strategy here still
watching but maybe at that point fifty
percent of my time was on the
advertisers and spending time over there
and then that continued to shift and
shift and shift one I like doing this
two I'm good at this the big classified
is sales in a way called sales yeah and
I think that's always the highest okay
so that's by the way that 80 rule that
you just said it's the 80 that's exactly
what I needed to hear
um but so you have a media buyer that
you're training up he might be 80 good
as you that's great do you have like a
project manager to like oversee like
accounts or account managers you know um
now I I do
for like facing the client client facing
oh yes client facing yes yeah well one
guy client facing it was it was me so
first I was doing everything then he was
doing some of this and I was still doing
this because I because I still believe
this is the highest value yep and and
and and this was the hardest to hire for
and I think the highest value again even
the agency let's go back to even more
simplistic business like I had someone
running ads again and I was the client
face facing and I tried to get someone
in there to to
um manage clients and they would do a
pretty good job but even then like I I
was like the higher payers like I still
manage towards the end because I knew
that was the hardest position for me to
hire because it's a very high value
could they do the job well without
understanding the media buying side to
the core question I've never had someone
who didn't understand both okay and I
wouldn't say intimately
because he moved from Junior to or
Junior to Middle to client manager
because he could talk very well
um this one this guy at my current
company was uh rainbow AdWords for maybe
six months how much so he understands it
enough so I would say for me
um they both understand it pretty Okay
cool so again this is a is there any
other core hires that you said that like
you were surprised that was so important
or that pretty much it's pretty
straightforward I'd say I would say a
fractional CFL what do you mean by
fractional mean
an hour or two a month so there's yeah
yeah okay B2B it's a literally letter B
to B CFO and these are a lot of like
retired CFOs from big companies that
charge a lot maybe three four hundred
bucks an hour but three three or four
hours a month and I didn't really
understand the value to
reading my
p l similar how you read an ad account
as an example or something like that and
there's a huge value because I could
really understand where there were
believes in my business profit centers
there are a lot of things that I started
tracking that I didn't track before that
I didn't understand
um it was very inexpensive for the value
that the individual brought because they
have 50 years of skill and they can look
at it like that and it takes an hour or
two yeah um a month and that's all we
would mean with that first
and a forecast I didn't realize really
no different than goal setting so if if
I just went through life and we're like
yeah but if you said I thought your
video on this yeah I think yeah if you
were like uh get the YouTube channel go
watch his YouTube channel thanks dude uh
yeah if you wanna if you know if you
want to set a goal to lose 10 pounds 12
pounds I like this one let's say 12 and
it's a it's a pound a month or something
like that
um you know you've got did I lose that
pound this month no I better sure should
lose two next first I want to lose
weight it's for generic match or
whatever that is right you could even
break that down even more bite size but
a forecast does the same thing we want
to be at this level which means I need
to do this per month this per day which
means I need to have costs at this and
revenue at this it's very I actually had
it down per hour I knew my hour that I
needed to drive to go hit my one year
goal and that forecast was extremely
helpful put together relatively
inexpensively but I would have hired a
CFO faster okay
these are like year five for most people
if you're watching this but really
important for scale and to like do real
numbers and I say CFO actually
probably year one really yeah
I need a CFO I would have one a year at
year one certainly I mean we talked
about your level absolutely yeah well I
would have one I probably had a CFO uh
uh for actual CFO at
I was making call it 150 000 profit
Revenue was probably 250. so about a
quarter million
we're out of over a hundred thousand
dollars of caught money to myself it was
a lot easier to justify call it two to
three grand five grand for the year
let's say of a fractional CFL okay I
think this money will spot great advice
thank you okay I'm gonna ask a selfish
question now kind of a left turn though
do have you ever heard of sub Affiliates
sub Affiliates or affiliate tree where
essentially you would let people like
you would build out that exact you'd
give them the ad give them the funnel
and you're basically just hiring media
buyers and you get a fraction you just
like split the revenue so they could do
more scale if you're like say you have
like a 20 profit margin per lead you'd
give them 10. and you know you have all
the data yes okay so a network is that
the term uh yes that's what I would call
it but you sub affiliate might be the
corrector you're more experienced than
me I don't know no but you also have
like Ecom okay yeah you might be correct
but you never tried that
I never brokered people's traffic
because okay I wanted to control it on
my end here's the problem with it's like
hiring an affiliate
an affiliate hiring affiliate basically
for me we'll use Network you call it sub
Affiliates sub Affiliates or network
problem is like when I just describe it
was like I want to get the away
from them as quick as possible because
they eat up Margin I don't think they
add a ton of value and directly to the
end offer so for me
I was over the network because even if I
got something off of scale with a sub
affiliate you guys are competing for
traffic when it's paid almost too
um it's just like let's let's say you're
my let's say
uh Jeff is the chair owner on the
affiliate you're my sub affiliate Jeff
pays me 50. I pay you 30.
you we start cranking you start crushing
sales like how long do you want to pay
my 20 toll tax when you want to talk to
Jeff immediately okay so we briefly
touched on the tools you use like using
Facebook ads and then building on
WordPress and all that but were there
any other like communication tools you
said twilio for SMS but anything
internally that you use that helped yeah
um email of course
um you know I think this isn't
necessarily tools but um we would have
especially with the virtual team Monday
morning meetings we have every morning
or every Monday excuse me where it's
just a touch base the entire team no
matter what the size was on there I I
really like that that Cadence of
um some other Cool Tools in general are
something called Boomerang on Gmail
basically in schedule emails out
um and like if then response as well so
that's just a unless you didn't even
need like a autoresponder like an active
campaign or anything just yeah Boomerang
and Gmail I guess it's more like when I
was managing um when we had the Ad
Agency like I I like schedule something
out to go out at like Saturday night at
like 11 pm so that my customer thought I
was like freaking busted for your
clients yeah
but it's a cool it's a cool tool tool
look look at that I'm trying to go there
anything text message Auto auto callback
is all built on top of twilio even if
you go to like um another company they
uh a lot of these companies are built on
top of twilio so
um but what I would do
more importantly and I've been doing
this a lot with like AI stuff
pay attention to like inefficiencies in
your day or your business
and uh do a Google search I know that
sounds so funny but like uh okay like uh
the chair stuff like okay I want to know
how to get testimonial videos better
like and I just start googling around
like maybe set like an hour on a Sunday
so like for random research stuff I'll
find some really badass tools really
about us tools for for stuff like that
like AI based yeah just speaking my
language yeah
yeah for me it's like AI base like at
one point I was like I wonder if I could
find something like some YouTube videos
right and like it's like right at first
like Chad GTP was getting like uh excuse
me was getting um uh was getting a
little bit more mainstream I was like I
wonder if there's anything that'll sum
up the the YouTube videos and I was
literally at one point like took the
transcription from the video and then
copy and pasted in there and I'd get
like a download I'd be like oh sweet you
know what I mean like so obviously that
now there's like an extension and stuff
like that oh yeah but the point of me
saying that was like where is there like
inefficiencies on like Andrew huberman
three hour podcast I'm like I'm not or
Joe Rogan I'm not gonna listen to that
for three hours but can I get the
distilled best pieces and things like
that so hey I'm going on a really weird
change this is important though
especially with AI because for sure
these are going to be edges that we talk
about 15 minutes a day is a big deal so
every tool have an AI tool potentially
so I would spend a lot of time
um and my belief is the benefit of AI
will be the uh the data that the model's
built on yep number one and then two the
ability first to dream up how to use and
leverage it I think it's a commodity
yeah it's an unbelievably powerful tool
cool I don't think anyone listening even
if you're a plumber needs to learn how
to build AI I think you you need to be
thinking about
what how does it work and where where
could it be applied to the
inefficiencies in my life and that's
maybe a little bit more like uh Modern
Day present day example that's helpful
for people but even like
in general businesses where's what else
is there inefficiency in my day and then
I go seek out tools for that right I got
VA these will basically replace va's
very soon that level first so really
important for people to be aware of have
a ton of videos on my channel but uh
what about like a CRM like could use
like notion do you say or you
said Monday meetings Monday morning meet
okay use Monday
[4856] as well too CRM for actual
customers we never were like back to the
Rolls Royce like the max customers I
ever had at the agency was 25 maybe 30
Ops and then at the legion business that
was acquired like 16 so I never like add
I used um I think like pipes if I'm not
mistaken Ops or something like
that okay oh cooler uh for uh for me for
managing like um
like like lead flow things like that but
okay admitted they didn't have like 100
uh which I'm gonna call it like uh like
uh customer less than I was yeah and
then I was targeting like a few big
yeah I guess you didn't really collect
emails even that much for your no leads
but back to your um I we use and it
might be too specific for my space but
leads pedia okay was the name of
software for like uh CRM for leads
excuse me you're correct twilio I
believe don't quote me on this is a
little two in the weeds for for me right
now but I think twilio also has a CRM on
phone numbers don't call me on that but
I believe that's what we use I don't
then I had one other one I was going to
share with you back here I think about
it okay sounds good okay so now I want
to transition to what you're doing now
because it's cool as to me like
you're like literally like living like
the dream in a way thank you but
basically he's made enough money where
he doesn't ever have to technically work
again I would say that's safe to say and
so now you've picked up a complete new
skill and you just dj.edc as like a DJ
on like the main stage which is so cool
to me and I did watch a little bit of
another podcast and it seemed like it
wasn't necessarily something that you
were always like this wasn't like in the
plan from like I'm gonna I want to be a
DJ but be a DJI you need a master
affiliate marketing get Financial
Freedom then I can chase my dream it was
more so like the sound I'm I sold my
business this kind of sounds interesting
and I don't know anything about it yeah
so tell me about that Journey because
that's so cool yeah dude thank you uh so
this will get a little more so so first
um interesting thing is ruin uh my
business was acquired
um I had a new business which was
managing my finances so I had to and I
think anyone who's making you know
relatively significant money I don't
think you need to have like a massive
liquidity event
I think that I ignored that being in my
second business for too too long because
it's uh arguably even a more important
business depending on how much money
you've made
because you already have the cash first
trying to go make more cash right if
that makes sense on it so um I I did
what I always hire a mentor we talked
about that right away I love
peer-to-peer learning groups I joined a
group called like tiger 21 before that
oh really that's cool if you're in Tiger
21 oh you know it yeah yes yeah I know I
love it I love it I love that group so I
was in uh when my business was under
250k in Revenue I was in EO EO
accelerator uh entrepreneur organization
accelerator I would recommend that for
business even 5 million below but it's
really the 250k and up is the is the
excuse me 250k to a million is the size
that a million plus called EO within 13
million plus called YPO and then after a
certain amount of assets you're able to
did you join YPO yeah I was in YPO oh
I want to talk about that okay oh
cool yeah yeah but don't but I I that's
I've been doing that for 12 years these
peer-to-peer even Tony Robbins Platinum
partner group like these peer-to-peer
learning groups I think are really
I I just want to note that but um uh
through as being like a transition for
that like something that I like was
navigating yeah last year um so that's
one and then you mentioned that the
DJing stuff I I have a maybe uh what did
you call it psychotically
psychotically intentional psychotically
intentional I I like that it's kind of
very very triggering word I like it um
but I I had this like um I believe this
like exists for everyone whether you're
I don't know if you have to be religious
or philosophical or in a Karma or what
it doesn't matter whatever it is but
anyone who's ever like visualized like a
free throw before you know before you
you know yeah and then you have a higher
chance of making it I feel it going in
the hood yeah I'm a big believer
and so
um I just had this like thought like um
maybe like two years ago I was like okay
if it's I believe most people
delusionalize worst case scenarios so I
believe we make up
completely the worst case scenario of
off of fear not everyone but it's our
human instinct like survival thing yeah
her survival but if most of that shit's
made up and if you reflect back and yeah
yes I'm missing that none of that hap
less than one percent of that ever
happens right
certainly less than ten percent let's go
there's making yourself miserable in
your mind so why not be unbelievably
delusional on what could happen
positively so like even like like today
like I
don't it's not you know people
meditation I woke up for five minutes
and I delusionalized like the best day
ever I had like a uh and it's just like
so out there yeah and insane it could be
that there was a crowd of 10 000 people
in your office when I'm talking and
they're all business owners they all
went on to wait 10 000 people each and
the magnitude of impact was growth so
much and all the families that and I
just like I'm going down a rabbit hole
just like unbelievable delusionally made
up which sounds funny but we do it
all day long on the negative so why not
do it positively so
I like thinking about I did it a year or
two ago I said what's something that's
just like out there that I could do and
I was like I want to meet Les Brown I
don't know if any less brown is but he's
a football coach you know that's less
mild no no it's okay Les Brown's like um
our grandparents her parents like Tony
Robbins like okay okay so he's like a
motivational speaker he's
unbelievable and I'm a big big fan of
his work and I was like I want to meet
um so then I I just put it in motion I
started you know hiring someone who
would know someone who did something
uh someone who's been in touch with him
before I started reaching again
resourcefully Network all this up so
Bill next you know I'm interviewing him
in a podcast that I started a podcast
just because I wanted to there you go it
was like totally intentional yeah
intentional but I don't know podcast I
got a podcast can I interview you
oh and by the way you know so and I got
to fly out of meet him in Atlanta so I
was like okay so if anyone listening
comes with a basis that if you believe
that you can be or do whatever you want
and I do believe that anyone at any
level can be or do whatever we want and
I also believe that if you were born in
the United States of America 100 you are
overly overly in the one percent month
you know I don't care if you make
minimum wage working at McDonald's
you're in the one percent I I truly
believe that you were gifted by God
grace whatever whatever you want to put
it to to be here you are unbelievably at
a Advantage being born in this day and
age and where you're born do you have
the internet
time everyone's everyone's equal on that
so that that you can't say I don't have
enough time everyone has the same amount
of time
internet now has broken down any
barriers of knowledge so you can't say I
don't know I don't know you could know
you could figure it out so there's
there's no barriers to get to to where
you were to where you want to go so
anyway all that being said I I had that
that thought and I was just at a music
festival and I really love it I've never
done a drug in my life I I drank once in
a while so why not you haven't done LSD
or anything dude oh I I haven't cut off
that I I potentially one day would would
look at like Ayahuasca or mushrooms or
something I know there's a lot of data
around and I have no judgment around any
any or anything around that I've
literally never done drawing in my life
um but I love EDM music festivals I
don't know it's not the energy I just
love love it's just like a good good
place 100
that was that one and I said you know
what if if my basis that I could be or
do whatever I want is true
if I want to be do that and for me a
goal was to play at a major Music
Festival EDC and let's put in a motion
wouldn't that be fun I've never played
an instrument wouldn't that be fun I
don't know music theory I don't know
anything and it was it's almost like a
building trust with myself to show
myself that I can do like do what you
say you're gonna do in a way like myself
like selfishly it sounds like uh it
sounds like kind of egotistical but like
I did it to show I I like doing things
to show myself that it's a new Mountain
too that's exactly right yeah so for for
the the chase of a new Mountain starting
at zero and I understand that's naive I
I had resources of of people and and
money and other things like that so to
say at zero is not correct you're too
humble it's not but to start at a low
level knowledge wise you were a zero
start at a low level or something and
build it up and um it was was really uh
appealing well it's not I mean I feel
like it's very common for people at your
level or in my world of entrepreneurs
it's like it's not about the end goal
it's not about the exit the company then
you're happy forever it's like literally
the act of just learning working toward
something and trying to achieve that one
endpoint so that makes that's why I
think it's so cool and I'll thank you
and I'll prove it to you if you ever buy
a pair of shoes that you think is
awesome and then yeah a month
later either in the back of your closet
three more things Big Lots of right and
Things become relative cars cars
especially cars but how about a goal
have you ever wanted to run for me you
know a marathon a triathlon you work for
months and you change your whole
lifestyle all this and then you cross
the finish line how long is that good
feeling last does it last a year a month
a week a day an hour for most people
it's between an hour and a week that the
good feeling last so
I realized the beautiful thing about
life is for me meaning life is to grow
and to give so to continuously grow in
any categories and growth equals
happiness for me so growing in anything
is me being happy it's not the end
result it's not right angle so to your
point finding new things to grow in is
happy and it's I said fun it's fun and
it makes me happy to grow in any
category in any level if as long as I
went to bed saying I grew today I had a
pretty damn good day and it has and that
also removes the basis of
money or material or outcomes it's it's
a very achievable outcome and I I found
I've had a lot more joy in life focused
on rowing versus things and stuff
because it becomes relative and who
cares anyway it's all I think
it's really important because most
people chase money and think and it's
normal until you've experienced it and I
think everyone goes through this but I
think one thing that I've learned that
it's like so true now it's like to be
happy you've seen like 30 minutes of
sunlight good relationships people you
care about so you're actively engaged
with and then working on something that
you find meaningful or important now
listen there's no judgment that's not
happiness yes and there's no and you
mentioned that people finding that
because so I can I can see it on the
other end of the screaming now people
going oh easy for you right you
know yeah yeah
you know my dad's retired cop and my PD
cop my mom worked my elementary school
so I was not gifted economically my
I I I I worked very hard I had no
investment for anyone I never raised
outside funds I went from zero to where
I am today that's not to brag that's to
anyone say no easy for you obsessive
learning like obsessively that is the
key yeah yeah 100 where was I where was
I going with that
there's something on the growth the
growth comp how you can achieve
maybe maybe that's what it was um oh
just oh excuse me I was saying like if
someone's focused on like material
no judgment
no fault I think I think you will find
and if you reflect enough like you asked
me actually you were like I think when
we first started you like were you ever
uh selfish with things and like
course I had a go I had a goal to make
six figures I would go to make a hundred
thousand dollars I did it and it was
probably the longest stint I've ever
I'll call it depression's not the right
word but like low feeling same because I
did it and I was like now what and then
now what feeling is very real and you
everyone listening has experienced it
After High School you experienced it
maybe after an accomplishment any
accomplishment any life-changing event
after college now what and that time
period is actually really interesting to
study in Psychology I think it's Michael
Jordan who talks about the first
championship's not the hardest it's the
second third fourth fifth and sixth the
sixth one was the hardest because you
did it so the motivation to win the
championship million and you have every
fruit like to be a millionaire that's so
easy to find the motivation for that
stuff it's when you've experienced it
and you've felt that
emptiness of now what there's a lot of
self-growth that comes during that time
period to go win it again and again and
again and again and I love studying
people that are lifelong winners in
multiple categories Arnold
Schwarzenegger as an example it's one in
multiple categories
his entire life not interested in
learning someone who
had one exit in a business or
kind of has a great relationship for two
three years I want to meet someone who's
had a 50-year relationship and they had
so that's a six that's successful to me
it was a long-term sustainable success
those are the people I want to study and
learn and learn from and this is this is
no different so anyway so to close at
that point if you want a Lamborghini if
you want this do it climb the mountain
but awesome if that motivates you
I think
finding out earlier that that it's a
higher octane fuel to be I told you I
was motivated for
um uh freedom of time at first for
myself truly and I was motivated for my
brother to not have to ever work I joke
like have a dick boss and everyone in my
brother low quality ladies my best
friend he's so close to me and one day
we'll come and I was like
I had a boss I was a little bit meaner
and I was like
this he's going to have this one and
that I couldn't sleep with it like I
almost get like when I think about that
I couldn't sleep with thinking that the
person who's closest to me my brother
is going to experience a low quality of
life and he can do something about it
talk about that for fuel versus
someone wanting a new pair of
Christians right batons you I'm
gonna work 16 hours a day seven days a
week I'm gonna outwork the hell out of
you because I I got so much more
sustainable so think I ask you a
question on that is this your brother
specifically yeah why do you feel
accountable for him and why would you
not say maybe let's say he should get
off his ass and work as hard as me too
like why don't you think he should be
you're equal in a way you know or hold
him to that expectation because I'm his
older brother
um maybe I'm close to him
nothing you should think that way by any
means just because I'm the same way with
my close friends uh learning for me is I
can't remember the book there's a Triad
for it um but it's basically like being
the hero versus a coach and I've
actually had to learn part of my
learning process over the last year as
being more of a coach than a hero so
what you just said like being a savior
is actually an egotistical thing too
when you actually break it down but you
know how teach a man to fish versus like
you know give them fish and for a lot of
my life I've I've done that my littlest
brother not even that brother I have
given a lot to and I've actually done
him a really bad disservice I've had
that experience spoiling and giving and
and really robbed him of his um
uh fulfillment and that's been that's
been a really that's something I'm
actively getting better at and learning
so so to answer your question I'm still
working through that uh not being called
a hero uh and and being more of a coach
and being more allowing people to find
their own path and help guide them or
coach them but not be
I'm 100 this the Savior type as well
like where I feel like my closest friend
is the one who like stuck with me
throughout all my ups and downs
supported me I like feel responsible for
so I could definitely see it being an
ego thing and it's super beautiful
there's nothing to be ashamed of for
that but it's all good intent it's great
intent but there's a middle ground of
where you're actually serving serving
them where they where you're robbing
them a fulfillment thing
that's why I ask because I have
experienced that or they like kind of
get comfortable or expect it now or they
just yeah I mean be a selfish Pig Yeah
but learning I think I think there's a
good yeah there's there's a good number
okay cool but so then just back to the
DJ thing are you still pursuing that or
is that just like I want to see if I
could perform once and then I had the
experience it was fun but not like
something you loved to death you know
interesting time in first talking
because my goal was to play the major
Music Festival I did in May at EDC like
you mentioned
um it's almost like what I mentioned
like the graduating college selling a
you know right where I'm kind of
figuring out how I feel right now about
that do I put another bar there or do we
talked a little bit about like my higher
aspirations in in business that that
I'll I'll be pursuing as well so an
interesting transition where I think I'm
uh I I'm still getting Clarity on that
answer yeah um but it's actually a
pretty beautiful to have that time
period for myself right now with what
we're talking about where you hit that
Milestone of for someone it's a
Lamborghini for me it was it was playing
at this thing where
studying this time period of like growth
for yourself like I've got to learn like
and do a lot of introspective thinking
like why am I doing this what right or
do I want what impact does that make
what does that do for me yeah the DJ
lifestyle is a probably a different one
I can see how that has big implications
sure and the difference from anything
for me like you probably hit like that
top 10 maybe top one percent but the
difference from that to the top point
one percent is I want to do gruel it
exactly and then that's and you know
it's funny you mentioned that like to to
actually answer that a little bit more
in depth like
you know let's just let's say okay I'm
in the top 10 maybe I'm not even close
but maybe in my head I'm out where I
wanted to go right like to a good level
like to go perform at a made stage and
have major labels sign you and all this
am I five ten years away and
full-time commitment to yeah then you've
got people working around you and you
let them down
is that my actual goal and my goal is
not to be a world famous DJ this is a
really fun thing for me to do and
experience and really the show actually
I talked about my little brother the
coaching I wanted to show him you could
you could be or do whatever you want
that's really cool so that was actually
talking about my motivation again too
was not to have to to be cool and fans
it was actually to show my little
brother that he could do whatever the
hell that's awesome Manny that's awesome
so that was that was a true truthfully
that has been my motivation
and and I I can answer with certainty my
motivation is not to what you just said
go to the one percent to the next level
on there which is probably my answer and
what I should do now is kind of start
some setting it uh but I do have major
aspirations to make a huge impact in the
world and run a billion dollar
evaluation business not because I want
to be a billionaire not because I want
to be filthy rich but because I believe
you need to add enough value to the
market in order to be more that kind of
valuation at that point so you need to
add enough value to customer
shareholders employees and team to be
valued at a billion dollars you need to
add a billion dollars worth of value to
the world for a lot better world so if
you back up you look at business as a
spiritual game it it it very much like
you have to deliver like we talked about
deliver value consistently to your
customers to your employees to your
vendors to to all these people in order
to make money like at the end of the day
no one's giving pay you money unless you
win the lottery to you may are making
the money you've made because of the
value you've added to the world again to
your team 100 customers all these people
to me that's very spiritual so I have a
benchmark and goal of a billion dollar
evaluation because I want to add a
billion dollars worth of value to the
world probably in mental health is is
where it will be we talked a little bit
about it with before so that that's my
next iteration next chapter in life
we'll be focused on that as I start sun
setting kind of this cool fun
called semi I don't know if distraction
is the right word but fun passion
project while also running the business
of my investments while also figuring
out what I'm going to do next in
business and
I really want to emphasize this point
for anyone watching this especially if
you're like on your come up or your
beginning or wherever you are and you
haven't really achieved that level the
million dollar level you think you need
to be people do it for Lambos they do it
for these watches or a nice house or
even to just get laid and they think
that once you have these material things
that's going to help you get a girl but
in reality what you learn is because you
see all these successful people with
girls or with all these nice things a
great life what you learn once you get
money is it wasn't the money those are
in and of themselves skills you have to
learn and the people that have money
have now had the time to learn those
skills to get good at whatever they
chose so the money had no correlation so
if those are things you want sit down
ask yourself what do you value what do
you really want then just get good at
those things because money will come
eventually once you're good at those
things and you try to provide that back
in the world through value I think the
greatest question is uh who do I need to
become to get X right and that's a
totally different frame than what do I
need to do or or these other or feeling
insurmountable like who do I need to if
you want a Lamborghini
who do I need to become in order to get
that and
immediately start thinking about habits
and discipline and all these other
things and that really make you into a
right good person I I believe not
everyone no I agree but but to a better
person you really work on yourself when
you ask yourself who do I need to become
to get X I think that's the question I
would go to whatever that aspiration is
would I and I even I'm asking myself
that today if I want to run a billion
dollar valuation business and mental
health who do I need to become in order
to do that what actions do I need to
take differently how do I need to think
differently how can I invest in myself
differently in order to be ready for
that which will happen it will
materialize who do I need to become in
order to get there and um that that's a
really empowering question that's so
important and that's a mental framework
that I've had for anyone listening need
to adopt this but constantly anytime I'm
making a decision I constantly ask
myself is this a decision that a top
performing person would make is this is
this something that a top performing
person would do and then I can make
decisions so quickly I shouldn't eat a
Pop-Tart no it's a top of one person
would nine to Pop Tart so dude by far my
favorite podcast and I'll put that in
the podcast Anthony sarandria guys
follow him on social media where can
they find you in Instagram I uh I try
and respond I'm not trying I do respond
to every single person who sounds a mess
that's how I got him on this podcast I
think that takes me a little bit of time
but I um this is really fun for me I've
had so many podcasts and mentors and
people that have I've learned from that
I wouldn't be even a quarter of Twitter
I am today so this is a really really
fun for me to pay it forward I
appreciate you sharing it brother of
course thank you so much of course