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YDS: A Customer is NOT a Stakeholder for a Scrum Team! - YouTube
Channel: Agile for Humans
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[Music]
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all right
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what's up
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todd it's a new day it must be a new
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episode of your daily scrum
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it must be
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i just realized i'm wearing a brewery
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t-shirt for this one maybe they'll send
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you some beer
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he'll farm stuff love their beer
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sponsors
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all right welcome this is your daily
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scrum we are professional scrum trainers
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ryan ripley and todd miller together we
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run agile for humans the premier
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training company on the planet
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all right maybe north america maybe
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whole bunch of other stuff check out the
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description check out our it's there you
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can find our book fixing your scrum our
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website and all sorts of fun stuff about
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us
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all right todd today this is kind of a
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debate we are we're having as we're
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creating uh
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a new course mm-hmm yeah yeah we're not
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actually super fun can't say no more we
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spent all day but it's gonna be awesome
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but
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we kind of had this discussion we
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thought what a fun uh
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idea to bring to the show
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is a customer a stakeholder for a scrum
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team todd i'm gonna let you give the
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wrong answer
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and then i'm gonna no
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how are you looking at this can you
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break it down for everybody uh sure uh
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so i've heard this i've actually heard
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this debate quite a bit and um i've
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landed on my opinion for the debate uh
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so
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when i think traditionally of a
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stakeholder i i think of somebody that
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has a vet vested interest in the outcome
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um but not necessarily a receiver so
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when i think of stakeholder a receiver
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of what we're building when i think of a
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stakeholder um i think of somebody that
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maybe is holding the purse strings right
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they own the money it could be an office
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employee whose job is impacted it could
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be a sales person that's going to sell
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it a marketing person needs to market it
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i think of a i think of somebody that
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has a vested interest in the outcome but
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is not necessarily a receiver of our
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product
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and um sometimes when i when i see
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customer mixed in with not receiver i
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think that we get a little confused so i
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really like to say stakeholders are
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stakeholders and customers are customers
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and um a customer is a receiver of the
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product that we're building and i i try
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not to get i try to draw a line between
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the two of them um
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what do you think
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i i see a stakeholder as i agree with
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your definition someone who's invested
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in the outcome of the product someone
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who we see as a trusted partner to help
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us understand what we need to build
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um
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let me ask let me ask you a question
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here's kind of the question that kind of
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helps me frame it we use an online tool
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to manage our the financials of our
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business right
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so if they were to decide that invoicing
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was going to get pulled out of that tool
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are we invested in the outcome of that
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decision
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yeah we're so we we are um but we're
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invested as receivers
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right right so they could make that
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decision a stakeholder could lobby to
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make the product owner make that
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decision and that product owner makes
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the decision and the receivers of the
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product are the ones impacted now
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indirectly the receiver the
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indirectly they're impacted the
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stakeholders are impacted probably from
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some kind of financial decision but
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we're immediately impacted and going to
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start looking for a new tool to become
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the receiver of well and and that's what
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i was going to ask you next because i'm
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i'm trying to to pick apart kind of
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where you're at with this if i'm a
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stakeholder if i own the if i have the
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per strings for a product and we make a
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bad decision and we lose revenue or we
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make a good decision and we gain revenue
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aren't i also a receiver of that benefit
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i would say that because you have a
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vested interest isn't no your receiver
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you're a beneficiary
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of what we've given the receiver
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so you you benefit because you did
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something positively for the person
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receiving the product
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and i think that's actually really good
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discussion to talk about why we measure
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what we measure because you know we
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often sometimes say in our classes that
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you could have very high stakeholder
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satisfaction
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right
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they could be receiving or they could be
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the beneficiary of financial gains
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of new customer gains maybe
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but
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your customers may not be satisfied so
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stakeholders just because they think
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they know what should be in the product
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and you're kind of working through that
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as a product owner and stakeholders just
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because we're squeezing the dollars out
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of everything it's very expensive for us
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to maintain that invoicing thing so
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let's rip it out all right so we're
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making a distinction here that i think i
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like um i think you've just kind of
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swayed i i actually do not have a strong
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opinion here um i think you've just
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pulled me in we do the same thing when
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we talk about value
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we talk about outcome and impact outcome
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is for the organization impact is for
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the customer
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right now what you're saying is a
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stakeholder is more internal a customer
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is more the external receiver
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and measuring those two separately
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is important just as measuring outcome
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and impact and using those measures
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differently
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is important so i actually think this
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isn't this is a great distinction
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um is a customer stakeholder i think
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todd you've just convinced me in the
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last five minutes um that yes we
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actually should separate these
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we should measure them separately now
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should we talk to a customer constantly
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about what they need from the product
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and what their pains and gains do that
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don't be the product owner who guesses
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yeah please yeah please don't guess
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don't just talk to the stakeholders they
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just want to you know increase
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shareholder value well that's not going
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to please a customer yeah but i like
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this consider them separate they should
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have different types of questions they
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have different areas of concern
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different measures and as a product
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owner you get to balance out
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which which which levers the pull which
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measures to look at just as we think
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about
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outcomes and impacts does that make
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sense it does and just to draw a line on
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that and i say this all the time as a
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product owner it's maddening
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that just because one is true does not
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mean the other is i've been in
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situations where i've had really heavy
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customers and upset stakeholders believe
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it or not i've been in many situations
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where i've had um really happy
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stakeholders we built you built what we
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said to build right unempowered product
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owner and the customers were like what
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the heck is this right there is really
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not a correlation there really should be
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a correlation between happy customers
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and happy stakeholders i don't know
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there oftentimes isn't so
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cool i uh
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i'm swayed in fact i'm going to give you
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a new banner todd
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sweet there you go you got it i'm with
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you
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so i must have built a good case then i
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feel the connection around what you
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measure i think really swayed me there
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and i think that's an important
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consideration for all the product owners
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out there for all the scrum masters out
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there really be careful you know what i
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the more i think about the more i like
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it we can't just lump the customer in
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because you're going to get these false
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positives you're going to get these uh
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some are happy some are not this
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distinction is important so yeah todd
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i'm with you a customer is not a
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stakeholder street
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let's see what let's see what everybody
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else thinks
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leave us your comments below we want to
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know what you think is a customer
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stakeholder yes or no um leave us your
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comments leave us your questions your
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questions turn into videos check out the
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like and subscribe todd 35
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them we do too
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uh and for as for todd miller
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i'm ryan ripley go forward do some great
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scrum things
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don't assume always talk to your
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customer
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and we'll check in with you tomorrow
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see you
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