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Woodward: Trump's Not Nixon, But He Tried To 'Strangle' Probe | The Beat With Ari Melber | MSNBC - YouTube
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welcome back on the beat we are now
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joined by journalist bob woodward
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who won a pulitzer prize for his
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watergate reporting and continues to
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scrutinize and report
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on washington power right on through the
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current trump era
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five men were arrested early saturday
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while trying to install eavesdropping
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equipment at the democratic national
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committee the country tonight
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is in the midst of what may be the most
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serious constitutional crisis
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in its history the president has set
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himself against his own
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attorney general and the department of
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justice washington post reporters bob
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woodward and carl bernstein piece the
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watergate story together bit by bit
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suppose we had not written those stories
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we've thought about it and we've
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realized that
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it's feudal because you can't answer it
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these are the people who said that the
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truth is negotiable
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bob woodward's explosive new book on the
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administration fear trump in the white
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house shows the president lashing out
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fear it paints a portrait of a chaotic
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white house driven by dysfunction
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the washington post bob woodward joins
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us on this eve of the mueller hearings
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the author of 19 books including as
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mentioned
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the new york times bestseller fear about
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the trump administration time magazine
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stated his work all the president's men
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co-authored with carl bernstein
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remains perhaps the most influential
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piece of journalism
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in history thank you for being here
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thank you for inviting me i'm thrilled
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to have you i'm thrilled to learn from
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you
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uh let's begin with the basics how
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should americans
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watch this hearing tomorrow well i think
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as you've suggested this is democracy
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and this is
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the president being held accountable in
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a way
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he does not want this testimony he does
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not want this
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spectacle but we're going to have it and
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the the question is how do you
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look at the evidence that mueller
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presented as you've pointed out earlier
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in the show it's very clear in volume
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one on the basic
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investigative issue was there
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coordination was there some sort of
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conspiracy
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they didn't find it that was a big
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deal that shocked lots of people
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probably shocked you
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didn't it uh you're being a journalist
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and asking me
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it seemed to me to take your question
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seriously that at least
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by the ninth inning of the probe a lot
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of the investigative focus
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was on roger stone and not the type of
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people that would have pulled off a true
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conspiracy
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well but they didn't find it and uh
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that's very significant now on the
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obstruction issue
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it is not got that kind of
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tape recorded incontrovertible
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evidence that we saw in watergate
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let me let me get to that exactly then
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says you mentioned it
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uh listening to those tapes that you
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reported on that shocked the nation
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uh here is a short one where the
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president himself starts talking about
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blackmail
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how important is that when you're
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investigating a president when you
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listen
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to that tape and look at the transcript
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the president
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is told we're going to have to pay
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blackmail money to the watergate
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conspirators to keep
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them silent to keep them from telling
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the truth and you look at the whole
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watergate story and the evidence it was
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not only a cover-up
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lots of crimes 17 wiretaps ordered
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on white house aides and reporters
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so in terms of magnitude we don't see
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that
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in the trump investigation so far but
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there are lots of
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things in the obstruction
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investigation these 10 items that are
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presented
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that if you think of a president doing
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these things whether they're criminal
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or not they really should be intolerable
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that's not what a president
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should be doing sending aids out oh stop
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the investigation
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cut it back and so people are going to
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look at that through the lens of
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politics or
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the law and also the wonderful
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lens that i think is on this issue
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more important common sense what was
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going on here
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was this some sort of effort to strangle
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an investigation clearly it was
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was it criminal trump talked about and
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sent
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people out to let's get rid of
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bob mueller the special counsel
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and his investigation but it never
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happened
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nixon he did let me pause you on the
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word you just used
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although not to to a criminal degree you
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say the mueller report does show an
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effort to quote
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strangle the probe yes clearly
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and what should americans make of that
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well they're going people are going to
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look at it very very differently
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and that's the beauty of this
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report this is the beauty of having
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somebody like mueller
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testify and people
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are focused on it and they're going to
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learn from it and where it goes
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uh i don't know in in the case of nixon
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when all the evidence or of the evidence
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up
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to the month nixon resigned in 1974
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was barry goldwater
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the conscience of the republican party
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went to nixon and
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essentially said because of what's on
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the tapes
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all the criminality all the lies you
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are finished and 95
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senators out of a hundred wow are going
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to vote
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against you and when nixon was told that
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he resigned the next day
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and bob you keep stressing the stock and
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trade that unites
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good prosecutors and good journalists
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which is evidence
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not a theory of the case not a
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speculation about what
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motives might be but the evidence in
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nixon we look at blackmail which we just
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mentioned
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uh you have this overwhelming evidence
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from the tapes that you mentioned the
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spoken gun that will put up here quote
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we're being blackmailed says dean nixon
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says the blackmail he's aware of it
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they say the blackmail is continuing i
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think we have
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this here and
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haldeman says the problem with the
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blackmail
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nixon says to pay the blackmail you look
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at this up and we'll leave it up here to
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sink in
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does the mueller report have this level
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of presidential
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conduct proven it does not
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yeah and we we need to face that
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and people who uh are so object to
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trump and in the last book i did i
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didn't find anything
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new in the russian conspiracy
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but i found the way
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trump governs we really have a governing
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crisis and you pull
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out how he has handled north korea or
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saudi arabia or china
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or the tariffs this this
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uh this is not the way we need to be
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governed and
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we better worry about that also
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but you know this is i i
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applaud that we're having this hearing
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quite frankly
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yeah you think this is a a worthwhile
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endeavor despite of course all the
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political noise attacking it
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uh because you're here i want to go
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deeper with you uh
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and let's put up the legal evidence that
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does compare this we hear these
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historical comparisons so often but
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let's look at the legal evidence here
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when you start it starts out bad for
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trump as you'll see here bob
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uh you look at the attempted firing you
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have the alleged crimes
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and you have the attempt documenting the
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mueller report
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of trying to fire mueller that's the
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trump version and the saturday massacre
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famously with nixon
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but then when you go to the action of
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what prosecutors would call the overt
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act of firing the prosecutor let's look
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at the evidence
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you have the massacre with nixon you
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don't have it with trump partly
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don mcgahn may have saved the presidency
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and lastly for your analysis
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as discussed this idea of what did trump
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want to do what did he secretly try to
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do what was his intent the mueller
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report gestures at it
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plotting caught on tape though with
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watergate you have it
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what is it what in your view is that the
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key difference here at the end of the
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day or not
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well there's an unwritten rule in the
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justice department going way going back
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decades and that is the
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the more evidence the
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the higher quality evidence you have you
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need it
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you need more of that the higher you go
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everyone talks about in these thousand
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prosecutors who've said rightly an
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average citizen
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who had this kind of evidence against
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him
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or her would be indicted and
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charged but the president
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is not the average citizen and to to to
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mueller's credit
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he adhered to the
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office of legal counsel opinion that
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a sitting president cannot be
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indicted and if you just think of that
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not through
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any partisan lens that makes sense you
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can't go around
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and indict the president who has
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all these responsibilities in the
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executive well let's be clear there were
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plenty of people
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who felt that was the obvious and clear
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standard
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until donald trump became president uh
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and even in the legal community which
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is supposed to pride itself on
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consistency we saw some shifting among
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some but before we go i want to turn to
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some of your reporting you interviewed
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bob mueller
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uh and he told you all the way back in
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2002
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right when he was fbi director as
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director he says i don't feel that i get
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the substance or texture of an
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issue without going far down in the
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organization as it takes to find the
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person who understands and is dealing
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with it
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day to day i could be accused of
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micromanaging and i'm sure
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i am bob couldn't someone wave
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that quoted him tomorrow when he says i
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don't know i'd have to check back
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and say mr mueller our understanding is
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every day you've already checked in with
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everyone to know what you know
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well but he but he i mean this is
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a wonderful description and it was not a
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question i asked him he volunteered it
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and he said i'm interested in substance
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and texture
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and i want to dig as in to the
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level in the organization where you have
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the people
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who have day-to-day responsibility he
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did this
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in this investigation i think
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as i've read the report now three times
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my god for
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you know to be punished like that that's
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because 600 pages then yeah
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it's it's it's a slog
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but you see something new each time and
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it is a very important presentation
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of findings about presidential
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behavior and in the end and i think this
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is what attorney general barr hung
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so much on the report says
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mueller says this report did not find
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did not conclude that the president
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committed a crime
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and that's very important whatever the
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reasoning is
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go back to watergate they did find
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that nixon committed a crime and the in
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the special prosecutor in that case
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had nixon indicted
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as an unindicted co-conspirator by the
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grand jury in secret
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and mueller said no we're not going to
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do that and he talks about that
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in this report so i think
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lots of people are going to look at
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mueller
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and say okay i don't necessarily agree
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with all of it
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but this is a decent process
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we also live in the environment now
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of the unexpected the witness
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that appears i know people i know myself
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and working on all of these issues i'm
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looking for new
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witnesses and if
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you look at the history of watergate it
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was only
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kind of an accident that they found the
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secret taping system that nixon had
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we don't think trump had one but
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let's keep digging and uh you know and
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to a certain extent
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it's uh the probably the best digger
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around is mueller and it's too bad
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he's home or playing golf at this
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country
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well i guess i think as you say it was
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interesting to hear you
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fairly draw the comparisons in the
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contrast and also say i think it's a
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fitting point to
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to to end on for today let's keep
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digging
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uh bob woodward thank you so much coming
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on the beat i hope you come back thank
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you
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yes sir uh hey i'm arie melbourne from
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msnbc you can see more of our videos
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