He Sold His First Software Business For Millions with No Experience - YouTube

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if you try to build software where you
don't deeply understand the problem or
you don't deeply understand the customer
you're never going to succeed because
you'll always be one step behind a
competitor that does
I didn't want to just be like a Facebook
ads monkey anymore if I can just stack
up enough money to start a software
company I think that's where I'll make
the real money
all three of my software companies have
just been productized apis I always knew
that I wanted to do something in
software that's where the highest
Leverage is you can sell the same thing
over and over and over again you get 10
15x multiples on you know the value of
your company building no code software
companies or just productizing an API
selling them on acquire.com they're
making millions of dollars a year it's
not hard to start a software company in
this day and age these large language
models have apis if I were to start a
SAS company for the very first time in
2023 I would
welcome to the we're gonna make it
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figures the goal of this podcast is to
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enjoy the episode
Kieran I guess Karen O'Brien my longtime
friend I suppose at this point but
brother you have sold two software
companies in what the last 18 months
yeah yeah roughly 18 months incredible
and it's cool because you've done two
different kinds of software you have
like a typical software company then you
have like a micro sass yeah and Iman got
what Iman actually ended up buying yeah
yeah he did so that's a cool story I
want to get into later in the podcast
sure let's start with media kids because
that was the big one for you now for
legal reasons guys you know I love to
ask how much money people make right out
the gate but Kieran
signed a contract he can't talk about it
yeah but he's doing well let's just say
that and he had tens of thousands of
users so do the math but basically what
was media kits how did you come up with
the idea and just tell me all about that
yeah so medikits.com was basically like
it was a SAS platform for data and
analytics for influencers and online
creators and so basically it would take
all the apis of the popular social
platforms and it would put all your
analytics into like a one-pager that you
would then use to connect with Brands so
we had some of the biggest influencers
in the world celebrities using our
product and they would basically take
their their link with all their
analytics and you know when an
influencer goes to a brand and they want
to do they want to promote the brand
they want to do a shout out or get paid
for for something like that typically
they would always go to their analytics
and take screenshots and so we kind of
saw that that was an outdated process
and wasn't it wasn't very scalable and
the the analytics always get outdated
and so we basically just built like a
really clean ux around some apis and
turned it into a product that ended up
going really viral on Tick Tock and
Twitter and some other places so
basically people like influencers would
try to get sponsors to make money to
monetize their exactly yeah so they had
a really hard time sponsors would want
to know how many views do you typically
get yeah how many followers you have
comments engagement agent agent gender
breakdown geographic location of your
followers all of that and there's really
no easy way to find that information
there's a bunch of tools online that
that scrape that information and guess
it but nobody knows that information
accurately other than the platforms
themselves and so you kind of have to go
to the source and then the next issue
beyond that is it's on a per platform
basis so if you're a brand and you want
to pay an influencer for a shout out on
Tick Tock Twitter Instagram and YouTube
those are all different companies that
don't talk to each other that don't
share data between each other yes and so
you'd have to go and screenshot your
analytics on each of those platforms one
by one to be able to give the brand of
you into that and that makes a lot of
sense because they'd only want a video
on maybe Tick Tock for this specific
campaign right yeah and then another
thing you mentioned when I was watching
your video guys check out his channel he
makes a lot of great YouTube content on
this Karen O'Brien but you in that video
you were talking about not only were the
they struggling to even get it but it
constantly is changing because every
month your views are different exactly
you guys kept it live updated with the
apis exactly every day every week
um you know people were going in and
updating their media kits previously
like before our product people would use
Photoshop or canva or something like
that and they would be going in there
updating it every single day every
single week in a lot of cases graphic
designers full-time job right exactly so
they would have graphic designers on
staff a lot of the talent agencies that
we worked with so we had a B2B model too
or we'd sell both smart yeah we'd sell
bulk seats to talent agencies that's
actually where we made most of our
um and so like they would have full-time
graphic designers on staff just updating
media kits like changing ones to twos
and threes to fours and it was just
ridiculous and then the individual
creators they would have Freelancers
that they'd hire to do like graphic
design to update their media kits or
they'd be doing it themselves and it
would take them hours and hours every
single week so I mean ultimately the
product just solved the problem that was
painful enough for people to be willing
to pay for it okay so two things I want
to point out here one you're just
referencing that you're using apis so I
feel like a lot of people over
complicate software can you just explain
like what an API is and how you can wrap
that into a software company yeah
absolutely so an API is basically data
structures that a company will make
public to their own platform so most
large technology companies have apis
where sometimes they're gated you have
to apply for them but sometimes they're
public and basically you can tap into
these these endpoints in in these apis
and you can pull valuable data so for
example meta's API which we used for
media kits had things like you know
follower account and gender breakdown
and Geographic breakdown and you know
follower growth over time and all these
things and so we would use those apis
we'd make API calls through our
application to grab that data and use it
in our product and so you know same
thing with the company that I sold to
Iman it was just an API that we put into
a really nice user experience from a CRM
product that did didn't have a very good
reporting dashboard and so we built a
reporting dashboard for this CRM and
productized it and then my new SAS
company too we're taking apis and
productizing it so you know I always
tell people
starting a SAS company starting a
software company you don't you do not
need to know how to code you do not need
to come up with the next Facebook it can
be something as simple as a no code
simple clean ux that just takes an API
and productizes it you set endpoints and
data structures I just want to clarify
for everybody basically if you have a
Twitter API and you tweet you can
connect the API to your own software and
the tweet on Twitter will show up in
your software exactly yeah that's super
simple yeah that's one example of it
yeah and so all you have to do is find
like a specific use case of that
information and then brand it and Market
it towards that demographic that has
that problem yeah and you can sell your
company for a lot of money essentially
exactly and I get another simple way to
break it down would be like companies
have apis to make the user experience
for their users better and so we'll use
the Twitter example that you just gave
right so Twitter has all this data but
they're not using it in every single
possible way that you can use that data
right Twitter is using it to create a
social platform right and so making
their API public allows developers and
you know people like us to go and build
software companies that solve like more
Niche problems around that same data so
let's say you know Twitter is really
focused on just building a social
platform and they're not as focused on
helping creators get brand deals so
somebody like me can come along and
build mediakits.com and take the Twitter
API and use that data to extrapolate
even more data and like make inferences
and and create uh you know different
data based off of the parent data if
that makes sense so we'll find Trends in
the data that Twitter doesn't even like
hyperspect exactly and then we use that
to build a product that allows Twitter
influencers to get brand deals right and
that's not something that Twitter is
going to build themselves but they give
all that data away to the public
to make lot to make life easier for
their users like why wouldn't they want
somebody who's a Twitter influencer to
be making more money it'll keep them on
the platform so you know these platforms
that have apis are incentivized to open
source them to developers and
entrepreneurs to make even more specific
products around them it sounds really
complicated but it's truly really simple
yeah and the apis exist for that reason
exactly like make them publicly
available so people like you can use
them for your own software your own use
case because it makes their platform
better exactly it's called an API key
you just have to go to their website
apply for one copy paste just like that
you have API so you know these apis
exist but how did you come up with this
idea like you don't just know that you
need media kids if you've never been in
the industry so how did you come up with
the idea in general yeah so the crazy
story about media kits is I came up with
the idea when I was 17 when I was in
high school and then I didn't actually
start the company until almost four
years later and so yeah that's what a
lot of people think that like you know
that we just came up with this idea and
then we built out the idea four years
before you like started it yeah and so
I'll give you I'll tell you why okay um
there's actually two reasons so the
first reason is basically I just didn't
know what I was doing and I knew that
and I was like I'm not going to start a
software company because I don't have
enough money and I have no idea what I'm
doing I don't even know where to start
um and that's totally totally a valid
thing and you know maybe I could have
started and who knows what would have
happened if I started the company back
in 2017 but
um the other reason is that I just felt
like the market wasn't ready so
influencer marketing kind of blew up in
like 2015-16 with the rise of Instagram
and then there was kind of this lull
from like 2017 to 2018 and what really
brought back the Creator economy and
kind of created this new Resurgence of
um you know of of activity in in that
industry was Tick Tock and so I noticed
that and that's that's why we launched
media kits kind of at the at the very
early stages of 2020 like during covid
everyone's locked locked down at home
they're on their phones Tick Tock blows
up that's when you know like Charlie
demilio Addison Ray all these Tick Tock
influencers kind of blew up and that's
when we started media kits because we
kind of saw that Trend and we're like
okay the influencer economy is back we
have an idea for a tool now we have you
know the resources and the connections
to actually make this work so let's do
so that's where you saw the timing which
is super important because there's so
many stories I know there's a company
that had like a almost like an iPhone S
level phone in the early 2000s and they
invested millions of dollars into it but
it was just too early the apps this like
ecosystem internet mobile internet was
horrible so it didn't work but 10 years
later when Steve Jobs rolls it out it's
a hit even though the technology really
wasn't much different so that's a really
interesting insight and I loved hearing
that but how did you actually come up
with the idea how did you identify that
problem because with influencer
marketing there's like 20 different
steps that go into it and I think you
did a really good job of identifying
like one clunky pain point and then
hyper focusing on that yeah I do want to
go into how you identified that yeah
absolutely so when I was 17 I was
running a marketing agency and I was I
was helping and when I say that I don't
want that to sound intimidating to
anybody because it was literally just a
glorified freelance business like I was
running Facebook and Google ads and
helping with influencer marketing for
like three three businesses and so one
of them was a company that sold Auto
Parts online and so they had a budget
for influencers and they wanted to try
to you know to spend this Budget on some
on some influencers and one of my best
friends uh Jr garage has a big
Automotive YouTube channel right and so
yeah he's right down the street and I
was basically connecting my client with
him to do this brand deal and they were
like well can we see his insights can we
see his data and uh they they actually
specifically asked for a Media Kit and
when they said that I'm like I have no
idea what a Media Kit is like let me
just Google this real quick I'm like
what is Media Kit it's like oh it's like
a it's like a page like a one pager with
all of your analytics and data and media
kits actually before the whole
influencer marketing thing uh existed
even before social media media kits have
been used for decades in uh the
journalism space so newspapers print
magazines traditional media they've
always used media kits to Showcase like
their their monthly readers and stuff
like that and so Media Kit was a very
popular term in in the journalism space
and it started getting adopted in the
influencer space at the time and so I'm
online I'm like oh cool like yeah let me
just go make a Media Kit for Jr real
quick there's got to be a website that
just does this for you like of course
duh it's like the most obvious thing
ever I'm like looking around like there
isn't like why why does this not exist
and so you know that's I actually did
kind of start media kits back then like
I I got the domain I actually even did
some of that yeah I did some mock-ups I
got the Instagram handle got the got the
uh the web domain did some initial UI
mock-ups and then I got a quote from a
from a web development agency that was
going to build it for me and I'm like 17
at the time I'm making like a couple
Grand a month like running this
freelance marketing business and they
quoted me like twenty five thousand
dollars to build this software and I'm
like that's the most amount of money
I've ever heard in a sentence before I'm
like I don't have twenty five thousand
dollars like I barely have twenty five
hundred dollars so I'm like well that's
that like let me just you know keep
doing these marketing services and so I
kind of just shelved at the idea I
always knew that it was a good idea I
always thought like maybe one day I'll
build it but again like the market
timing wasn't right and I didn't have
the the resources or the know-how at the
time to do it and back then you know for
everybody listening I didn't know about
no code I didn't know uh you know about
like building an MVP and and doing
something kind of like really like low
or no code and then you know building
something bigger later I didn't
understand these Concepts I did I knew
nothing about software I didn't even
understand the concept of fundraising
that I could go out and get other people
to give me money to build this thing so
kind of just continued on with life I
built I built that marketing agency into
a seven figure company and I did really
well with it and that's actually how I
made like my first kind of like real
money which I then used to start media
kits you know four years later you hear
that story a lot the agency cash flows
and then you dump that into like a
higher leverage opportunity absolutely
but you actually ended up raising money
for Media Kids yeah so
that's really interesting first off how
did you have one more backtrack how did
you have the self-awareness not to start
it or to wait so I'd love to sit here
and tell you that I'm super self-aware
and that it was like but dude honestly
it was the fact that if I had 25 Grand I
probably would have done it and I
probably would have ended up broke with
nothing to show for it because looking
back at that development agency probably
would not have been able we spent
hundreds of thousands of dollars
building media kits so knowing what it
takes now uh like 25 Grand no way we
would have had anything that actually
worked it's safe I would 100 say with
confidence that software is the best
business like the best business model
absolutely as far as like just
objectively High leverage recurring
revenue and your ability to exit yep and
so many people don't think that it's
like beginner friendly so now that
you've gone through it because you kind
of said you didn't start it at the
beginning because you weren't too hard
there's too high of a barrier to entry
in my mind but do you think that's true
now no I think software people should
like if you're going to start a business
objectively you want to start the best
business and so it's software is the
best business is there anything holding
back a beginner from just jumping
straight into software it's never been a
better time to start a software business
there are so many resources out there
there's so many ways to to build a
software business both conceptually and
um that it just kind of level the
playing field like it's really a game of
distribution of marketing now at this
point did you study like y combinator on
YouTube or how did you end up getting
those skills no you know what not not
really like I didn't even know about
like the whole VC World until we started
raising for media kicks like I didn't
even know that it existed quite frankly
like I was like I was in this world with
with like Iman and these guys like in
like the digital marketing space like
that was my world from 2016 to
2019. I didn't know anything about like
Silicon Valley like the of course like I
knew that it existed but I didn't know
any of the intricacies about like how to
fundraise and how to you know take an
MVP to Market or like join y comedy or
any of these things didn't know they
existed until I started raising for
media kits so so you did raise money for
Media Kids yeah what was that experience
like I don't want to really go into like
how to do it necessarily because we'll
talk about that later yeah but in
general obviously it worked out because
you sold the company but I've always
been like I feel like that's another
level of pressure to you yeah so is that
if you had the choice again would you do
it again it's a complicated question
um for a couple reasons but what I will
say I want to preface this by saying
that we bootstrapped media kits first so
by like by 2019 when we were kind of
thinking about starting it I'd saved up
like a couple hundred grand and that was
from my marketing agency and I started
spending it on on media kits so I was
paying for everything out of pocket so
we hired two engineers and a software
designer and I was spending like 15 to
18 000 a month of my own money when I
only had I only had a couple hundred
grand in the bank and I was spending
like almost 20 grand a month just to
build the software I almost ran out of
money like I would cost mainly just
developers uh two developers and a
designer yeah
they were all about like five six
thousand bucks a month each and then you
have server costs and you have all these
other things on top of it and yeah I
just started to run out of money and so
out of desperation I started to learn
how to fundraise and so I guess to
answer your question if I had like
millions and millions of dollars back
you know in 2019
probably wouldn't have fundraised but
I'm glad that we did looking back the
only reason that we had the success that
we did with it was because our investors
opened so many doors to us you know we
had Wiz Khalifa We had the guys from
[聽__聽] Jerry we had you know so many
influential people in the space that
just opened doors to us whether that was
to our B2B customers talent agencies
getting some of the biggest influencers
in in the space on board getting some of
the biggest music labels you know we we
signed contracts with a couple of the I
can't talk about it but a couple of the
biggest music labels in in the world
because of the people that we had on our
cap table the people that we had as
investors so as I'm hearing you say this
I'm like damn this guy's like connected
out the ass he's got it all it's like no
wonder he's successful but I really like
want to focus on like the time when you
were bootstrapping sure like yeah the
amount of time you had to spend waiting
I'm sure because you're not are you
technical yourself no so you can't code
nope get your partner code at all nope
it was yeah Casey couldn't either both
of you are non-technical so you got to
hire the technical team yep I only have
one quick Interruption for the podcast
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you're spending 15 to 20K a month to get
it built by these developers but really
you're just kind of telling them the
general idea and then you have to wait
like a week or two for them to build it
yeah it's like
first off that's stressful as [聽__聽] super
stressful and when you're making no
money too and you don't even know if the
idea is really validated so did you have
any form of validating the idea and what
were you doing in the meantime while the
developers were just working yeah great
question so
you're trying to start a software
this is something that we did at media
we did this kind of well
um but my my next two software companies
after that we did we've like obsessed
over this and that is
um basically going out to your to your
target audience and surveying them and
getting feedback on on a concept or an
MVP so MVP stands for minimum viable
product that's like that should be like
your North Star if you're thinking about
starting a software company Define what
your MVP is going to be so what is the
least features the the the basically the
most stripped down version of the
perfect product that you have in your
head that you can build for the cheapest
amount of money in the quickest amount
of time get it to Market stress test it
see if people would pay for it so like
one core function that is like the main
value and it doesn't even have to be
software it can be a clickable prototype
it can be a it can be a Wix website that
has a couple hyperlinks on it like
literally our first Media Kit that was
like our you know our MVP was literally
just a figma prototype like we put a
couple screens in figma and you can like
link things in figma to make it in a
prototype make it look like it's a real
app and we just had a clickable
prototype and we would send this to
influencers be like hey if this existed
would you use it
yes great how much would you pay for it
so you would send in like a landing page
explaining what it is and then just say
hey is this something that you would use
if it actually worked right now exactly
they couldn't get any output yep exactly
so so you but you're verbally asking
them we're you know we were in DMS we
were dming people called dming people we
were reaching out to friends who were
influencers and having them message
their influencer friends and just like
Network effect we put out a type form
that I think got like three or four
hundred responses okay cool um so even
like down to our price point like we
charged 29 bucks a month for media kits
our price point was determined by
surveys that we sent out to our users
sorry keep going no I was just gonna say
we're we were very data focused and
again in retrospect we didn't even do it
to the extent that I would have wanted
to like it was kind of an afterthought
it was like holy [聽__聽] I'm spending 20
grand a month let me let me make sure
people would use this so it was a few
months into that that I was like let me
just go ask people if they would
actually use this yeah so we did it
retroactively but you know I think
anybody out there who's thinking about
starting a software company if you can
come up with an MBA P it could be no
code it could be just a clickable
prototype you don't have to know how to
code the barrier to entry really is that
low it's so exciting creating an MVP get
out there talk to your customers
everyone says that but until you're like
in that moment it's kind of hard to like
consider it so what what is like what
did the survey say and how did you
incentivize people to fill it out yeah
so it would be
um so to incentivize them to fill it out
they would basically we would promise
them that they would get like Early
Access and that they would get like a
discount on it when it eventually came
out so that was that was pretty easy and
like there's plenty of ways to
incentivize people to do things right
um so yeah but the the main thing is it
was like a logic based survey so we used
a type form so it was like if somebody
clicked something on the on page one it
would take them to a different page than
if they click something else then right
yeah so there's a bunch of logic built
into it so it's like would you use this
if yes then well why would you use it
it's like well I'd use it for this
reason there's like a drop down with
like four different things and it's like
okay and then you know use it for that
reason like well how often would you use
it and how much would you pay for it and
this is not it's like well if you
wouldn't use this why okay for that
reason okay well what would make you
want to use it right so we just
collected as much information from our
Target users as we could and that kind
of helped us inform product decisions
down the line okay so that's another
interesting point you said down the line
yeah I'm like non-talk non-technical but
we're building software right yeah and I
have like a million different feature
ideas that I want done but I'm getting
so ahead of myself because like we're
just now getting the MVP done yeah every
idea I have could add two three four
weeks of an expensive developer
absolutely so what like First off how
did you choose what's Implement what not
obviously it's probably just like a risk
reward yeah but like tell me more about
what you were doing in that meantime
while you were waiting so there's con
there's this concept called called A
control point
so it's like you want to create
something that becomes like the control
point for the rest of your products so
what is like that core product like for
us it was the media kit at media kits
right and then we can expand from there
okay okay so if we can build the best
simplest easiest to use Media Kit
product out there then eventually we can
go build a Marketplace or we can build a
B2B offering for talent agencies we can
do this this and that right and even so
uh to give further context on that our
MVP was just uh Twitter
Instagram and Facebook we didn't even
have Tick Tock or YouTube when we
launched so that's another example of
how you can do an MVP like limit
Integrations limit the amount of UI that
you're building limit the amount of
functionality and so the idea the goal
of your user interviews when you're
early when you're when you're building
your MVP should be to find out what is
the one thing that would make them use
it what is the one thing that's
non-negotiable right and then from there
you can build the rest of the features
but you've got to get their attention
you got to get them in first and so what
is that thing that's going to get them
in and what you'll find
this goes for anybody building any kind
of software whether it's a no code like
bubble software or something really
complex it doesn't matter what it is
what you're going to find is your early
adopters your early users are are going
to use just a couple core
functionalities and they don't care
about everything else all the cool
feature ideas you have in your head
there are definitely people out there
that would use that and that would also
think it's cool but in the beginning
there are plenty of the users out there
that would use and pay for just the very
very simple version of you know just
your core functionality and so that's
kind of what the goal of the survey is
is to see what most people are trying to
use it for exactly and you might find
out I'm sure you didn't but you might
find out that like almost everybody's
using it for a complete different reason
than why you make it so you might have
an idea to Pivot but exactly was it
pretty consistent it was pretty
consistent I think we did a good job at
collecting the feedback and
understanding what people were saying
you know the old saying is like if you
try to please everyone you'll please no
one yeah that goes for all areas of life
but especially in software like if you
it's called feature brain if you're too
feature brain and you're thinking and
this is this is both on the product
product and the sales side if your
product is too feature heavy and not not
outcome or solution heavy then it's not
going to work and on conversely on the
sales side if you're selling software
even and for anybody listening if you're
maybe working for a software company and
you're selling software for a living if
you're just selling the features all day
like no no one buys features people buy
outcomes people buy solutions to
problems and so if you can think about
that from a product perspective and
build software that solves problems
then the features will come
because all people are thinking about
how is it how does it benefit me
directly absolutely they're not thinking
about the technical API connection they
just want to know how I can use this to
make my life better yeah and there's so
many rabbit holes we can go down here
but like what I'll say is like if you go
to medikits.com and like you look at our
old like our website I don't obviously I
don't own the company anymore but it's
still there you can go to our website
all the copy on the website it's not
um it's not uh you know Common you know
show all your analytics it's like get
more brand deals right it's like the end
result exactly it's the outcome like
make yourself look more professional
right impress Brands like this is the
type of copy that we used on our on our
website because that's what the product
does the product gets you to an outcome
gets you to finding a solution for this
really annoying problem that you've been
having and a lot of a lot of software
companies and quite frankly any kind of
company like if you don't know what your
customers are looking for in terms of
outcomes and and solutions to their
problems then you're never going to
build a good product it's like like
that's such a good point it's like why
does this exist because you could say
two different things in your landing
page get all of your social media
statistics in one place yeah that could
be your landing page copy or get more
brand deals yep exact same product but
that one actually resonates with people
much more strongly exactly why they sign
up that's really cool outcome based
outcome-based selling outcome based copy
that's a great one okay thank you for
that that taught me a really clear
Insight now Okay cool so is there
anything else during that like to
optimize your time in that building
phase when you're just syncing the money
in that you decided to do that was like
helpful in any way uh
um you know honestly man that that part
of my life was like a blur like it was
just so are you still doing agency work
on the side yeah oh for sure like yeah I
was just like barely like I was just
trying to break even every month like I
was like if I can make like like because
my agency at the time I was doing like
maybe 50 60 Grand a month in in top line
revenue so I was taking home like 20 or
30 and I was spending all of it on
software and then everything personal
for me yeah that's all negative at that
point so I'm like freaking out and um we
were trying to figure out like how like
how do we get this to Market like just
you know just like how do we put this
out there so that people can start using
it and hopefully pay for it and when it
became obvious that we were too far away
from that I was just kind of doing the
math I'm like all right I've got this
much like dry powder left dry powder is
another word for like money in the bank
like I've got this much money left and
I'm spending this much and we need this
many more months before the product is
in a place where we can sell it which by
the way in retrospect totally flawed
thinking I if I could have shipped the
product way earlier than we did and
started generating revenue and that's
one of the biggest mistakes looking back
where you focused too much on like the
design how yeah totally yeah and that's
every first time founder every first
time software company makes that mistake
they think the product needs to be
perfect before they launch it so yeah in
retrospect should launched way sooner
but hindsight's 2020 yeah at the time
I'm like we don't have enough money to
get this to a place where it's sellable
and so that's ultimately why we decided
to go out and try to fundraise and
that's what I did with a lot of my free
time is okay so I have been I think this
is a good time to go into it so sure
first off why did you even decide to
fundraise and go through with it instead
of just saying I wasn't over my head I'm
just gonna stick with my agency I'm
making 20K a month yeah I'm killing it
I'm only what 21. I was 20 20. like I'm
killing it making 20K a month what made
you like take that challenge head on
I want to change so like like you kind
of mentioned I knew that there was a
that there was a glass ceiling on agency
work it was it was basically just my
face like I had like a one-to-one
relationship with all my clients I had a
team but like it was me like I was
basically a freelancer with a team at
that point and I wanted more I wanted to
I didn't want to just be like a Facebook
ads monkey anymore like I was literally
like totally good every day I was just
in Facebook ads just like tweaking
campaigns and I'm just like I wasn't
finding fulfillment with that and I'd
like I'd put away a decent amount of
money I'd made a lot of great friends in
the industry and I just wanted to do
something different and I always knew
that I wanted to do something in
software because to the point we made it
early in this podcast it's like that's
where the highest Leverage is you can
sell the same thing over and over and
over again you get 10 15x multiples on
you know the value of your company and
so it just made sense to me logically
I'm like if I can just stack up enough
money to start a software company I
think that's where I'll make the real
and so that's kind of how I was thinking
about it and then you know my my
business partner Casey Adams he had a
podcast where he interviewed like a
couple dozen billionaires yeah a bunch
of really successful people a bunch of
venture capitalists and so we're just
kind of sitting one day and at this
point you know we'd become co-founders
of media kits and we're just again
self-funding it he comes to me one day
he's like hey Karen like what if we ask
some of my podcast guests to like invest
in media kits and that literally it
broke my brain it was like a it was like
a whole new frame a whole new way of
thinking and I'm like wait a minute like
you're telling me that there's like
wealthy people that would give us their
money to build this I'm like of course I
know that that exists like I know that
venture capital is a thing but I just
couldn't wrap my head around why someone
would want to give us their money to
build this thing it was just it was just
like a foreign concept to me and so sure
enough like a couple weeks later we put
a little pitch deck together and we went
out and we started talking to some some
of these people that Casey had on this
podcast over the years and we start we
got a 25 000 check and then we got a 50
000 check and then we got a hundred
thousand then a hundred fifty thousand
dollar check and these investors like
these wealthy people are friends with
guess what other wealthy people and they
would tell their friends that they just
invested in medikits and then they'd be
like well I want to invest in media kits
too and then they would write a check to
us and before you know it we had a
million and a half dollars in our in our
checking account for this business
yeah wow is there like a first off is
there like a standard for how much
Equity you give away per round because
it's like your angel round right yeah
speed round what is it yeah it was like
it was a seat around yeah
typically you want to give away like 10
to 20 but there's so much Nuance to it I
mean it depends on I mean the type of
business you're just making it up at
that point though right you're totally
you're pulling out I'm going to guess my
company could potentially be worth 10
million dollars so well it's it's just
like anything else it's whatever people
are willing to pay yeah right and so
it's like
um I don't I can talk about this number
we raised our first round at a five
million valuation okay and that's like a
relatively standard seed round
um like even like a lot of YC companies
they'll raise their first round of
funding at a five million valuation did
you have any customers no at that point
no customers no problem
available no it was it was mock-ups and
clickable prototypes yeah and so yeah I
mean ultimately like the fundraising
process again it's a game of of
describing your vision and helping other
people see your vision and it's also a
game of fomo like when a bunch of really
notable investors put money into
something you know just like any other
Market oh yeah whether it's stocks or
crypto or whatever else it's like other
people want in right right and so it's
the same thing but you just you have to
manufacture it on like a Grassroots
level which is the hardest part but um
yeah I had no clue what I was doing and
just to be clear I don't want to make it
sound like this was super easy or
anything we fundraised that that million
and a half dollars took us over nine
months to raise from start to finish how
many people do you talk to oh great I
have those numbers I actually have the
old like fundraise CRM from media kits
still on my computer because it's like
motivation for me we talked over 350
people and we raised money from 30. and
those are all like one-on-one calls
pretty one-on-one calls usually 30
minutes to 45. if you had you talked to
350 people and only 30 people own these
a lot but that's so many calls like yeah
like that's so much time yeah so I mean
the typical rule I always tell whenever
a Founder asks me for fundraising advice
I'm like talk to about 10 times as many
people as you think you need to talk to
how do you even find that many just
friends like referral referral referral
yeah friends of other investors that's
that's the biggest one uh Twitter is
amazing for uh for finding investors
there's a whole dude yeah there's a
whole VC community on Twitter a lot of
like early stage Venture funds will even
have like public links where you can
apply ah and send your pitch deck in I
guess their job is literally to give
money so that's one of the things let me
let me talk about that for a second
that's one of the biggest Paradigm
shifts for anyone somebody listening
that's thinking about raising money
whether it's for a software company or a
consumer package company or you know
even like a real estate project whatever
it is if you're thinking about raising
money from investors you've got to
understand how investors think investors
are literally capital allocators for a
living their job is to put money
somewhere and it might as well be with
you because you're building the next big
thing and the other paradigm shift that
I had and this has been so helpful
um you know for fundraising even like
for my new venture is
if you are 100 certain that whatever
you're building is going to be
successful which of course statistically
not everything's going to be successful
but if you're not 100 sure and 100
confident in yourself then you probably
shouldn't be starting a business anyway
yeah but if you are absolutely certain
that you have an idea that's going to
change the world or that's going to
change an industry or that's just simply
going to make money and be successful it
doesn't even have to change the world if
you're so confident that it's going to
do that then it should it's a privilege
that somebody is allowed to invest in my
company definitely you definitely flip
that like that's the Paradigm Founders a
lot of Founders feel like feel like they
are like begging for money from
investors and as soon as you feel that
way or that you position it that way or
you give off that energy you're screwed
you're you're going to lose when you
come into a call it's like all right
this investor I might give them the
opportunity to invest in in my company
because my company is going to make them
so much money and it's an opportunity
that they sh that they would be stupid
to pass well you cannot say that you
can't say that you just have to be
thinking about arrogant of course that's
100 true because you can only raise a
million dollars for two million dollars
not just for simple math 100 000 each
yeah they get one percent each only 10
investors can do that and if you're
right that could turn into millions of
dollars for them absolutely and so then
all these investors start fomo again
like exact three friends here said I
invest in this company 50 Grand then he
starts my other friend invest fifty
thousand dollars I want to be like oh
[聽__聽] I'm gonna miss out there's
something here and so you can definitely
create that fomo from investors 100 I
never thought about like that yeah no
it's literally their job and all you
really have to do is like you don't be
qualified you don't need a degree of
college degree to raise money no
literally have to have you just have to
convince a rich person to give you money
is that yes for sure and I want I want
to bring this back down too for you know
any of the any of the younger guys or
the beginning owners that are listening
to this slide you were 20. I was yeah
but I want to say like it's not as
intimidating as it might seem once you
start to understand the intricacies and
I will say um there's a book out there
that really helped me with fundraising
it's called fundraising by Ryan Breslow
uh he's the founder of Bolt like the one
click checkout company they're like a 10
billion dollar company or something
um if anybody's thinking about
fundraising go buy that book on Amazon
and read it it's like the best book for
for Founders to read about fundraising
but the next thing that I'll say is you
don't have to know wealthy people to to
raise money from uh from somebody right
you can crowdfund there's platforms out
there like republic.com for example
um that you know where you can crowdfund
invest investment
um you know again you can go and you can
just cold Outreach to to VCS on Twitter
like there's so many ways if you're
Scrappy if you're a hustler if you truly
believe in what you're building
that you can go and find money there's
there is such abundance in this world
and there's so much money out there
that's looking for a home that's looking
to be allocated somewhere and all you
got to do is find it yeah cause I mean
people have tens of millions of dollars
they want their money to do the work for
them and if they can find some smart
person with a good idea to do all the
work and they just have to fund it
absolutely no-brainer and even if they
a few million dollars that one hits they
make their money back so yeah that's
that's the thing I guess that makes
sense again a venture capitalist if they
invest you know if they have 10 million
dollars and they invest in 10 companies
a million dollars each and you know five
of them go to zero it's like yeah they
lost five million dollars but if one of
those 10 becomes a billion dollar
company then you know they they just you
know at 10 or 100x their money or
whatever in terms of like dilution and
everything else that might have happened
in the meantime but you know they made
all of their their losses back and then
some and so these investors are also
playing a game too they're playing a
numbers game yeah and so again you just
have to believe in yourself and be
confident enough to to know that you're
going to do whatever it takes to make
the successful and if an investor can
see that in you if they know that you're
going to do whatever it takes to make it
successful then they're going to invest
in you every time okay that's really
good advice I do want to take the
conversation a little different way
because I know a lot of people out there
are going to be like still like even
though we're saying that still
intimidated scary of course yeah yeah so
but just to wrap this topic up if you
had one 0.5 million dollars liquid at
that time
or moving into future Ventures would you
still choose to raise money knowing that
you could like there's a pressure that
you're losing somebody else's money like
me as a person I would rather lose my
own money than someone else's even
though that's probably not the best
business choice so if you had 1.5
million would you do it yourself and
bootstrap it or would you have investors
neither I would do a hybrid okay so the
reason that again it has a risk
tolerance balance basically not risk uh
opportunity okay so a big reason why
people raise money from what we call
Strategic investors is because they can
open doors that you can't by yourself so
I would raise way less maybe only like a
couple hundred grand but if an investor
that has a crazy Network or access to
certain things inside of your industry
that are very specialized and they can
open doors to that they're much more
inclined to open doors to that if
they're if they have skins by Wiz
Khalifa makes sense exactly gotcha yeah
cool so Wiz Khalifa was one of his
investors initially and so you got the
it was pretty much already built almost
kind of pretty much yeah and then that
just kind of gave you the peace of mind
then you can start planning so how much
got devoted to like marketing and growth
and how much got allocated towards the
Building Product yeah so this is where
we can really get into tactics uh we
spent forty thousand dollars on
marketing the lifetime of the business
wow yeah on paid marketing so that's the
theory that if you make a good product
that people want they're going to share
it and Word of Mouth will take
absolutely so if you make a good product
you don't really need to Market even
though you were a marketer so you could
have if you wanted well we still we
still marketed I just said we didn't
spend a ton of money okay we absolutely
okay yeah well and that's like in terms
of like really tactical stuff like to
get a consumer product to go viral I
mean I don't think anybody does it
better than than Hunter Isaacson good
buddy of mine who's behind NGL app I'm
gonna have him on here soon you got to
he's oh my God he's gonna he's gonna
dunk on anything that I'm about to say
in terms of in terms of product-led
growth but definitely not hold back his
opinion oh man I love it he's great I I
love Hunter but yeah I mean the big
reason like we got to 30 000 users in
like under six months because we went
viral on Tick Tock and so I know you had
Oliver on who talked about the same
thing he's he has a cpg company but this
just goes to show like we had a software
product he has a you know a physical
Goods product and both of us basically
built our businesses on the back of tick
tock organic virality but I want to
understand it because his makes sense to
me because it sure sex chocolate it's
controversial yeah yeah catch you dry
media kits I'm not necessarily going to
naturally send this to my girlfriend or
send this and they're not out of the
boys I mean yeah and just Apples to
Apples like we probably didn't have
nearly as many like views or Impressions
or anything like that Oliver does
because he can sell to literally anybody
anybody with a credit card can buy his
product versus like media kits you kind
of have to be like a social media
influencer to do it so the key for us
was we went kind of like Niche viral
inside of a couple key communities so we
went viral first and foremost in like
The Tick Tock influencer space so there
was a tick talker named Josh Richards
who was also an investor in our company
yeah and we basically we literally
posted a video you can still find it on
our on our media kits Tick Tock if you
scroll down enough but it got like 1.5
million or one or like almost 2 million
views uh in like a week and it was
literally like this is the media kit
that Josh Richards uses to get brand
deals with like that robotic voice from
Tick Tock like that was literally all it
was and it got like two or three hundred
thousand views overnight and we went
we we launched we had like 2 000 users
and it was literally like our launch
party in August it was like a big spike
and then September October we're getting
like five six sign ups a day and it was
just dead for like two months we were
freaking out yeah
and then this video I think we posted it
in November so you posted it uh I think
Casey posted it okay
um did you have like a company Tick Tock
or was it yeah we had a company Tick
Tock okay yep and media kits yeah oh
yeah okay yeah my business partner made
it uh media kits account posted it and
it went viral in November I think it's
like the first week of November and it
just went through the roof we went from
getting like five six sign ups a day to
like 500 signups a day
it's not a borderline major company that
one like that like one Tick Tock that
one Tick Tock and then well the and the
second wave of virality that we had that
really that really helped was in the
twitch streamer community so I don't
know if I don't know if you know this I
didn't even know this until until this
happened but the twitch streamer
Community is like massive and like they
there's like this crazy crazy community
of twitch streamers and they only have
like a few thousand followers each but
the influence they have because it's
long form it's like a tick tock at that
point exactly a tick talker with two
million followers in my opinion has less
influence than a twitch streamer with
ten thousand tick tockers have the least
influence exactly you don't even like
search for their content it's usually
like you don't even know who they are
you don't know their names you don't
know what their voice sounds in your
life yeah exactly so these twitch
streamers have these cult followings
yeah and they're also another thing
about them is they're all friends with
each other yeah and so we then after
going viral on Tick Tock we went viral
on Twitter which is where all the twitch
streamers hang out when they're not
um and that sent us through the roofing
again and we actually we didn't even
have a twitch integration at the time
but we had a couple twitch streamers
that were using it for their other
social platforms and then we built a
twitch integration and then they started
talking about it and it just boom
Another viral hit and it just went crazy
on Twitter that just makes so much sense
because at that point you like want your
friends to also succeed and if this
helps you make more money you instantly
tell your friends about it exactly it's
really important with any SAS and now
you're going to be to be sass so that
absolutely same concept B2B or b2c there
is something called Product LED growth
so the the terminal it's plg just if you
ever hear plg in the software space it
means product LED growth and that means
that the product does the marketing for
you and so you know you don't put money
into ads you don't do any of this
because the product will Market itself
for you and one of the ways that we had
plg at media kits is when you signed up
you would get your link and you're kind
of inherently you inherently you want to
share your link yeah because you want to
get brand deals right so guess what
people started putting it in in their
link trees they started tweeting about
it they started posting on Instagram
they started posting it on Twitter they
started pulling up in the middle of
their twitch streams and so it's
basically just free distribution free
marketing for us as a company and that
was how we hit product-led growth and
and specifically in the twitch streamer
Community like
we had these twitch streamers that would
sign up for the product and then
immediately post their link on Twitter
and then their friends would see that
and they would sign up and post their
link and it was just this viral like
Network effect they don't have to like
tweet it say hey check out my Media Kit
but it's there and then other people
that are like kind of looking at what
are they doing what can I add to my yeah
they see that like look into it then
they make their own account exactly so
it has like an organic ability that's
really smart so I was going to ask you
that's like what that Tick Tock is what
made it go big yeah kind of like your
moment but you did have an interesting
strategy with your launch party and you
launched on product hunt so can you
explain yeah real quick yeah so product
hunt for those that don't know is
basically a platform that allows people
to like crowd vote
um on certain product ideas so literally
anything like there's there's B2B stuff
on there it's mainly like b2c stuff but
there is some B2B products on there and
it's everything from like little tiny
like micro SAS apps all the way up to
like proper companies like companies
that you that are like household names
that you and I would know have been
launched on product hunt
um and so yeah basically like you go on
there and you just vote on your favorite
products and we posted media kits on
there the day after we launched and uh
we got second highest voted product of
the day which is annoying I wish we got
first we we uh it was good yeah no it is
what it is but yeah the product before
us was super sick so I can't complain
um but yeah it's great exposure
um product hunt combined with our launch
party got us our first couple thousand
users and um yeah productone's great if
you're thinking about launching a SAS
platform like launching on product Hunt
is a great way to get some initial
exposure from you know mainly like the
software and the development community
um yeah our launch party was kind of
um it was it was very intentional so
Casey and I before doing media kits we
actually used to throw networking events
in La we would like rent these crazy
houses and then I think that's how our
Network got connected exactly yeah
exactly so all of a lot of our mutual
friends like that's how I met them so
I'd throw these parties in LA with Casey
we'd sell tickets for like 50 bucks a
piece we'd rent a house for a day up in
like the Hollywood Hills for like six or
seven thousand dollars which back then
was like all the money Casey and I have
like we're I'm talking like 17 18 years
old we'd spend like all of our money on
like renting this crazy house and then
we'd sell tickets for like 50 or 100
bucks a pop and then we'd have speakers
and then we'd have like a little party
at the end we'd have catering and
whatever we did this like four or five
times was it profitable um no it never
made money but it is in fact it lost
money most of the time open doors yeah
open doors exactly and you know even a
few people that we met at those parties
like ended up investing in media kits so
it just goes to show that everything
comes full circle but yeah basically
like Casey and I had thrown these
parties and we knew that it was just a
great way to to bring people together
and so we decided to throw one for media
kits and basically we just like got this
event space which is uh was owned by one
of our investors again so there's
another reason like why you want to
bring in smart money
um and strategic investors but yeah we
got this event space
um Wiz Khalifa gave us like a massive
discount on his appearance fee again
because he was involved in media kits
and so yeah we had Wiz Khalifa come and
perform and it was just like a great
networking event and we threw it in LA
too so of course
um some of the biggest influencers in
the world were there which also meant
that pretty much everything at the event
we got for free so all the drinks all
the catering like all the stuff that was
there for people all the products and
and beverages were all sponsored because
all these beverage companies wanted
their beverages to be in the hands of
these big influencers that they knew
were going to be at our party video yeah
we kind of like game the system in that
way and uh and then yeah it was a hit we
got a couple thousand signups off of It
Wiz Khalifa got to meet him in person
and that was sick
um but yeah I mean like I said from
there we hadn't really figured out
product LED growth yet so after the
launch party the initial hype couple
thousand signups it just flatlined for
about two months until that Tick Tock
video went back did you ever struggle
with the turn after that event
not really um we didn't even have our
paid subscription out back then it was
just free only
um so so no we did have a we did have
some struggles with like product
adoption so people would sign up they'd
make an account and they wouldn't
actually build a Media Kit because
there's like two steps to using our
platform so it was free for that part
yeah okay yeah it was always free it was
a freemium product so it was free to
make Media Kit and then if you wanted
like the bells and whistles and like the
upgraded stuff then you could pay for it
what were some of the key upgrades white
labeling it so like removing our logo
um customizing it adding more than I
think more than three platforms I think
is where we limited it at so if you
wanted if you had Instagram Facebook and
Twitter and you wanted to add twitch or
YouTube or something you'd have to pay
for the upgraded program
um there was uh like like Pro analytics
we had additional analytics that we that
we uh kept behind a paywall there was
creating more than one Media Kit
actually was a big one for us so like
you know you might have one Media Kit
that's specific to your Twitter and one
that's specific to your YouTube gotcha
um and so that was another big one so on
our free plan you could only have one
Media Kit gotcha so there's a bunch of
stuff that we put behind a paywall do
you know the ratio between people who
just use the freemium or can you not
share that can you share that um I mean
I'm sure people could like reverse
engineer the numbers if I share that so
probably not but yeah it was a pretty
decent conversion rate okay yeah that
makes sense the multiple Media Kit yeah
yeah and the YouTube that makes a lot of
sense Okay cool so by the way the
product launch was basically since you
you live in LA right yeah he lived in LA
influentors are your Target demographic
so just throw a party of influencers put
exact kits everywhere say Media Kids
launch party and you have this core base
that's going to look into it and then
you basically started you didn't have
the product LED growth but after that
you learned you needed that figured it
out yeah so the freemium version people
could just use it if they wanted to put
it into like their link tree in their
bio people people initially find it yeah
exactly so let me recap you had the idea
in 2017 but it was too early you didn't
have the knowledge or the resources then
later around covid you see this
probably before covet right right right
after code had hit right around there
you see a Resurgence in Tick Tock
influencers something huge and so you're
like hey that idea is something I want
to pursue you hired two developers and a
designer you spend way too long
designing it before launching it to have
to figure out how to raise money you do
it with your network and then from there
you're able to get it done
don't do a ton of marketing you launch
on product hunt uh you do the launch
party get two enough users but then you
find out the product like growth problem
and you come up with that idea and then
your strategic investor Josh Richards
makes a tick tock that goes viral and
that skyrockets the growth of the
software absolutely and that yeah and
then six months later we got acquired
six months later got Acquired and you
chose to sell basically because you were
pretty much out of that Runway and so
you kind of either raise another round
you had a lot of users so you're making
decent revenue and so but you still need
to raise revenue to or raise money to
continue that level of growth yeah
exactly we actually
um we literally had the acquisition
offer and an offer to raise another
round of funding at a pretty like a yeah
like an eight-figure valuation
um both on our desk it really just comes
down to how far did you want to take it
yeah and then ultimately who's has who's
in a position to actually make this
successful yeah and you basically looked
at the market and you saw a lot of
competitors again he made a whole video
on this go watch his channel yeah but
competitors that were like small
companies like our size and then we also
had meta rolling out a media kit tool
and YouTube rolling out a media kit tool
it's like I can't help but think that
maybe we influenced them a little bit
definitely I mean it's like it's like
it's like Amazon you know like Amazon
has all the data and so like they have
Amazon Basics and so they'll just like
see which products are selling at a
really high margin right now yeah all
right let's just figure out how to make
that real quick yeah it's the same in
software and like we can talk about this
too like in software
um software in and of itself is not IP
anymore like it used to be because it
was so hard to build but the barrier to
entry is so low now that like anybody
out there listening if you build a great
product and you start making a bunch of
money so someone is going to rip you off
it's not if it's when exactly and so the
way that you build defensibility and IP
in software is brand and distribution
and so with media kits we had brand
nailed down pretty early like things
like our domain and the people we had
involved in stuff like that's brand
right and then distribution would be
things like product-led growth or
Channel Partners or you know investors
that are walking us into the you know
the biggest music labels in the country
to get us you know Enterprise deals like
that is how you build a moat and how you
build IP and defensibility around a
software product the code itself is
never going to be defensible yeah
there's always someone out there that's
going to be able to take what you're
doing and re-engineer it it's like your
advantages that other people can't
replicate exactly even though they're
not like you don't create them it's just
your relationships or something that you
other people have built up for you and
you combine forces yeah cool that makes
a lot of sense but this kind of actually
is a great segue into microsass because
yeah that was something that most
Facebook and YouTube have a broad
product they were neglecting that but
over time
they're getting a lot of things done
they're ready to tackle that because now
they're seeing that it's a market
because they can clearly see how
successful yeah it is in all these link
trees your competitors see that too and
so you saw a lot of people kind of
starting it you saw that you weren't you
were self-aware to know that you
probably couldn't compete with meta in a
company that wanted to buy it was like
actually had a lot of those advantages
exactly and so you wanted to hand it off
to them because you think they could do
it well did you have to work there at
all I did yeah I worked there for a few
months so did Casey
um and then I left because I want to
start something new but you were allowed
to leave like it was sort of like
contingencies yeah there was an earn out
um I left before it was like fully
um but it is what it is it's at that
point it was an opportunity cost thing
for me exactly it's like exactly you
know I made a little bit of money on the
acquisition and then I could have made
more by staying but I chose to I chose
to battle myself and start something new
as opposed to waiting there okay so then
let's just go straight into what you
right when you left yeah I would do the
same thing I don't think I could work
with you like that I get it um but next
you went into what we're going to call
the micro SAS phase of your life yeah
did you sell everything move to Bali
then just make that movement no so so
the crazy thing about that I don't even
know if I went into this in the video
but yeah basically the software company
that I eventually sold the Iman
um we built it so so keep in mind I had
my marketing agency
started media catch the marketing agency
kept running and it was actually we
never took a salary for minikits like
Casey and I never paid ourselves and one
of the reasons I was able to do that is
because I had this marketing agency that
was still making money of course and so
I had a business partner at the
marketing agency Kaden
um who was running it when I was running
media kits so he was just keeping you
know just basically maintaining it
keeping keeping the clients happy
and we used this white labeled CRM and
this white labeled CRM had a problem on
a per client basis we could see
everything like ad spend click-through
rate like all these things that you need
to know as a marketing agency like all
your analytics but you could only see it
per client and so you'd have to click
into every account go to the analytics
ironically very similar to the problem
with media cats is like the analytics
are there they're just dispersed in a
way that like isn't easy to access and
so I always joke that
um this company agencyreporting.com was
like it's like media kits for marketing
agencies it's like kind of the same
concept it's just taking analytics from
an API that already exists and just
centralizing them in a nice UI like
that's basically what it was but anyway
we had this problem where like we had we
had over 100 clients at one point and we
just couldn't keep track of all the
different metrics and like we jump on a
client call and it would be like oh well
like how are the leads doing this week
or where's the ad spend in relation to
the monthly budget or where is the
click-through rate where you know versus
last month and like these are just basic
answers that are basic questions that we
couldn't answer as easily as if we had
it all in one dashboard
so what we did in the spirit of building
an MVP uh we went and just basically
pulled the API into a Google Sheets
originally but it was a disaster like my
my business partner Caden's like a
wizard on on Excel and Google Sheets and
so he did it and it worked but it was
just it was slow and it was like things
would break all the time like you know
the logic that connects everything would
like break and like things would like
air out like man what if we just built
our own software to do this and so I
found the domainagency reporting.com
bought it for way less than you might
think I bought it for
um and basically we went and we took
all of the data from this white labeled
CRM across all of our clients and we
basically built a dashboard the way that
we wanted to see that data and we built
it for ourselves and we net we never
even thought that we would sell this to
anyone else we just built it for our own
agency and we used our own profit from
our agency to pay for it
and uh and then once it was built we
shared it with a couple buddies that
were using the same white labeled
software and they were like yo like can
I use that like sure yeah how how
difficult was it to transition from
internal use to productized
I mean in terms of like you know
productized I guess yeah
kind of like we we built it in a way
that it was scalable um we just didn't
have like a way to take payment so it
was basically yeah I was just creating a
new user account or like okay yeah I'll
just put like okay let's put a stripe
paywall on this thing and see if people
will buy it their account interesting so
yeah I mean basically what we did is
like this this white labeled uh CRM
company has like Facebook groups with
like tens of thousands of people in them
that are all like agency owners like we
were and uh I went in there and again
just like media kits I was like Hey guys
like if something like this existed like
would you use it and then I went and
everybody that said yes I just PM them
on Facebook I'd be like hey check this
out and send the link and go sign up and
they originally it was a waitlist and
then eventually we started taking taking
um yeah we had like 400 agency owners
that signed up for the wait list oh my
god um in like a day holy [聽__聽] and so
we're like wow well this is very clear
product Market fit um that's another
term in software that's used very often
pmf product Market fit it means that
your product actually resonates with
your target market
um and validate that they want it
exactly yeah so yeah that's that's how
we uh that's how we got our first
customers for that and um yeah we're
like okay cool well we're selling this
now we got it up to a decent like mrr
run rate
um but it wasn't something that like we
wanted to do long term and when we
launched it was right around the time
that I sold media kits like we were kind
of like working on this just like in our
free time yeah and um it was like making
decent money and I was like I have I
want to build something else like I
already knew like the next like big
company that I wanted to build and like
this is just going to be like a
distraction it's like I don't want to
have a side hustle I don't want to be
distracted by this thing and there's a
whole Market out there for micro
Acquisitions there's even
um there's even a company called
acquire.com that's literally built
around like Andrew gazdecki he's amazing
if you if you guys want to follow
someone in the software space on Twitter
follow Andrew he's amazing
um but yeah he literally has a
Marketplace that's for this for these
like ten to a hundred thousand dollar
Acquisitions of just like these software
companies that are pretty basic that
just solve one problem really well and
uh anyway so there's a whole market for
that and we actually listed on micro
acquire and we got some inquiries but
then I was like hmm like who has like a
large following of agency owners that
like might get value from the software
so you reached out to him directly and
uh yeah and I was like Iman like let me
let me just text Iman and like Iman Iman
and I have been friends for years like
we we connected in 2017 we hung out in
London a couple years back so we've
always stayed in touch so I shot him a
text and I'm like hey bro like I've got
this software that does this and it's
like built for agency owners to like
consolidate their data and we're doing
this much in revenue and I just want to
get rid of it because I'm building
something else I don't want like I don't
want to be distracted by it like do you
want it and he goes yeah bro I'll buy it
like name your price
I'm like okay well like here's my price
this is like this is like how much we
put in and like I want to make a little
bit of profit obviously so like this is
what I'm willing to sell it to you for
he's like cool yeah let's just jump on a
zoom call and figure out the details we
jump on a zoom call it's like 30 minutes
we're just like shooting the [聽__聽] I'm
just giving them like the rundown on the
numbers and then he's like all right
cool like yeah just let me know like
send like send me wire info like I'll
send the money and then yeah like a week
later he sent the money and we just
transferred him to the domain and the
the database and that was it
super simple yeah it makes sense it
could benefit his user base exactly yeah
you didn't need it anymore yeah that
makes a lot of sense and I love the
story about both your ideas because they
both came from first hand experiencing
the problem that is the biggest thing in
software if you try to build software
where you don't deeply understand the
problem or you don't deeply understand
the customer you're never going to
succeed because you'll always be one
step behind a competitor that does I
think that's a lot of like
people don't understand the big
companies like the ones in the hundreds
of millions or billions are the ones who
have just built these softwares for
their company yeah and that's why
they're able to scale because they have
advantages or they have better
information or they can communicate more
quickly so they save time so they can
talk to twenty percent more customers a
day yeah it's like these internal
softwares four companies are what make
them great and so if you have the
problem firsthand you work at a company
and your job is something and then you
have the problem that's a huge
opportunity for you just go build an MVP
in on the side and then start trying to
use it at your company or sell it to
other companies like yeah that's just a
tried and I think this is one of the
biggest points like we were talking
about before the podcast like this is
one of the things that I want to drive
it's not hard to start a software
company in this day and age all you have
to do is find a product with an API a
software with an API that has an
underserved segment of the market so
with media kits we found that analytics
were convoluted and they didn't talk to
each other across platforms so we took
all these social media apis we built a
really nice UI on top of it and just
show like a UI is just the analytical
data exactly it means user interface it
means like what you can see like so
there's the front end and back end in
software the front end is what you can
see the back end is the code that makes
it all appear on the screen right and so
yeah basically if you find an API and
productize it you can sell that and
you've got a software business and
that's literally what I've done all
three of my software companies have just
been productized apis with media kits it
was social media apis with agency
reporting it was the API of this CRM
platform and then with my newest company
it's apis of these like small business
point of sale softwares have you been
plugging in AI apis of course we can
talk about that we'll say that for the
end but I think that's like this is like
the biggest generation for our age yeah
absolutely our parents are the
generation before us at the internet
we have ai every software is going to
use Ai No software has AI just a big
opportunity there's no absolutely and no
code apis no code SAS Builders like
it's never been easier and so I think
the reason most people
say that software is not for beginners
is because it's only not for beginners
who have no experience working anywhere
because you don't know the problems that
exist you have to have a job or be
working on something every day to see a
problem yeah but now with the no code
tools that you mentioned earlier like if
you see a problem you can build it
without knowing how to code there's API
no code like make.com or zapier yep and
then you can literally just start
bringing it to Market without having to
put any money into it so now the best
business model is beginner friendly yeah
you just have to find an idea and then
validate it by taking surveys yeah fun
fact my business partner Cadence on
make.com's homepage because he's like a
power user of mate.com yeah we've been
using we've been doing exactly this like
that's what we're doing exactly what
your new business is yeah let's just go
ahead and go into that so you sold the
microsass the agency software yeah
because you saw one micro problem on go
high level yeah and saw that they don't
I show one aspect of the analytics yeah
so you just made this for yourself you
realize hundreds of other people could
benefit from it and then you sold it to
someone that serves those people yeah
super straightforward and again you just
happen to know Iman personally but you
could have sold it unacquired yeah no I
want to yeah I want to uh say that too
like we had offers on acquire.com Iman
was just willing to do the deal faster
and yeah and of course you know and
easier like there's a lot of paperwork
exactly yeah no commission Etc like
acquire.com is an incredible platform
and if Iman had said no to buying agency
reporting I can guarantee it would have
sold on on acquire.com for sure I mean
do you see sales all the time on there
like I know someone who literally just
makes the same CRM every single month he
makes one a month makes the same CRM and
just sells it on there for 30. there are
people that make millions of dollars a
year just building software companies
building no code software companies or
just productizing API selling them on
acquire.com they're making millions of
dollars a year yeah it's literally just
like this guy makes he just connects the
analytics and makes a ERM for one
specific industry and then just sells
that to one company and plugs in their
actual API Keys exactly so they get
their analytics he could make it and
then productize it but then you have to
like he just doesn't want to do it so he
just likes making it selling it it's
kind of like an agency almost like an
internal dashboard agency yeah it's cool
but okay so this this product had
product Market fit your microsass and it
was clearly working and you could have
scaled it so why but you saw a bigger
opportunity yeah so even without that
validation you still chose to pursue
this one that you didn't have validation
on yeah first off how did you find this
problem yeah and then tell me if you
want to go into it yeah sure so so I'll
talk about it at a high level but
um we did have validation on this one um
because I've been doing this so it might
seem like on this podcast like I'm kind
of all over the place but I've kind of
I've always done one thing
um and for a long time like when I was
16 years old my very first job in high
school was working in an auto repair
shop so I've always been a car guy I've
always been in the automotive industry
so so my first agency was first how you
got with JR which is exactly yeah
exactly so yeah media kits was like a
weird tangent like it was like a
consumer SAS company in like the
influencer marketing space which is so
foreign to what I was used to like my
first two businesses were both in
automotive and so and even like agency
reporting we built that for my
Automotive marketing agency right so
everything like the non-sexy stuff in my
career has always been in the auto
repair industry which is kind of crazy
because it's like one of the most unsexy
Industries ever but um but it's an
underserved industry and it's it's an
industry that I know very intimately and
that I've been involved in for like a
long time
and uh yeah basically we're building uh
kind of an AI powered vertical SAS
company for uh for the auto repair
industry and that that's my new Venture
I'm telling you like I'm gonna scream it
on my YouTube channel for the last four
or five months and I really feel like
people aren't like grasping
first how important is speed is but how
big of an opportunity this is right now
like this is like Drop Shipping in 2014
2015. SMA at 2016. like
it's you could scale up to the highest
level and you don't have to make the
product anymore you just plug in an API
it's [聽__聽] crazy yeah yeah and like to
your point like so open AI you know went
viral back in November December for
launching chat gbt
um the irony about that is so gpt3 has
been around for years yeah and there
there's actually a bunch of companies
that are multi-million dollar companies
that started Jasper is a great example
that started back in 2016 17 18 just
productizing gpt3 and then chat GPT for
some reason is probably just the UI
um I didn't even really think about that
until just now but like literally chat
gbt was an internal tool that was just a
productized API of something that
already existed at openai so if you
think about it that way like that is the
epitome of what we're talking about is
what openai did with igbt but
um you know these large language models
have apis so a lot of these AI startups
that you're seeing out there
all they are is open ai's API with a
wrapper around it that's geared towards
a specific industry and like you can
build a big business doing that you like
that's why they were but that's
specifically why they released the API
you didn't see because they don't have
like there's only 100 people there they
don't have the creativity or knowledge
in these industries to know all the
different ways it can be used yeah since
it's such a broad thing so they open it
up and give these people access to the
apis then collect all the data on who's
actually using it and then they'll make
better decisions from there and they
want you to yeah there's also this
concept of guardrails so
gpd4 gbt 3.5 like these large language
models they have access to all of the
information on the internet but they
they don't have the context to put guard
rails up around what's
important and not important in a certain
context so to to make that even simpler
um for a dentist office
like sure you could just use the raw API
from from openai to respond to somebody
who wants to book an appointment at your
dentist office
but what would be even more important is
if you can provide context and guard
rails almost like at a bowling alley
like the little things that pop up on
the side like that is what the big
opportunity is because if you're a
dentist or you own a dentist marketing
agency and you can go and say all right
I have all of this data from previous
customers or from their point of sale
software or whatever it might be and I
know XYZ needs to happen before they can
make their appointment or I know that
um were supposed to get braces last time
and they didn't right now I can build
that into my product and it's going to
inform this open AI uh endpoint to say
something with more context so you know
instead of being kind of like this very
generic uh you know text generation you
can actually make it industry specific
by giving it more data that's contextual
to that specific use case and so
um yeah we can dive into that if if we
want to get more taxes when people say
they're training AI That's all they're
doing is like say your dentist and you
recommend one type of toothpaste yeah
and so and then they want to ask what's
the best toothpaste you don't want them
to answer your competitors toothpaste
you want them to answer exactly what you
record you did a much better job
you know yeah so that's kind of like the
private data that's what stable
diffusion's whole business model is
exactly they give everyone access to the
large language model but then they go
ahead and train private companies
private data for their own use case
exactly exactly every company needs that
every company yeah so it's massive if I
were to start a bootstrapped SAS company
for the very first time in 2023 I would
take a large language model API like
open AI I would take a no code platform
like bubble and then I would go find a
really Niche very unobvious problem in a
specific industry and I would solve it
using contextual data comp combined with
so so contextual data from an API from
something that's already in that
industry combined with the large
language model from openai and I would
use that to create a product that solved
that problem really really well and then
I would sell it on acquire.com for 500
pause the video go back 30 seconds watch
that three times and tell you exactly
understand what he means because that is
exactly what me and my partner are doing
and I have not told him that word for
word what me and my partner are doing
out of all opportunities we could do
with our Network and everything that's
what we're doing and he said that
without knowing that I'm doing that I
did not and if you think he's a smart
person if you think maybe I'm a smart
re-watch that and really internalize
what he just said but you're doing it
you want to share the industry over yeah
we're doing it in the auto repair
industry so only solely really because
you're a car guy I would say yeah car
guy and just happened to have like a lot
of cool like knowledge and Connections
in that industry and so it's just
something that I'm very familiar with
that's another really important thing
yeah we're doing it in the real estate
industry neither me my partner have any
experience in the real estate industry
but we have a friend here who is killing
it in the real estate industry and
that's such a big market so it's like
choose the big Market find a specific
non-sexy problem make the UI better and
add AI anywhere you can first want to do
it like she's like a no-brainer playbook
in my opinion you know the less sexy the
problem is the better
um there's somebody on Twitter called
Cody Sanchez she's yeah so she's an
investor in my neighborhood oh really
yep and she talks about boring
businesses and that's literally she buys
laundromats for a living it's the most
unsexy thing ever but if you can build
some car washes too and car washes yeah
you can build software for laundromats
or car washes or dentists or whatever it
is and do exactly what I just said like
there's a big business opportunity there
again it's like the mobile app change
like every company already had a website
but now it's mobile app so you can
that's an opportunity make them their
mobile app and now every company will
need AI so you just make them their AI
version most of them aren't going to
figure it out internally and so if you
just make it for the industry you're in
then you can sell that to other people
you know the unfortunate part Brett this
video is going to get I don't know tens
hundreds of thousands of views and 99 of
people listening are not going to do
anything about it I can't it's not
complicated like we are we like we have
four developers on our team yeah and
we're choosing bubble and make.com we're
choosing both no code to learn it I'm
gonna look in the camera right now and
I'm gonna say if you are listening to
this podcast and you are one of the
people that actually takes action on
things and it actually listens and
applies the information that you're
finding on the internet like this video
like you did not end up watching this
log into this video for no reason
go and actually make an effort to do
what we're talking about because if you
just watch this video and then you skip
to the next video and then the next one
and then eventually you forget about
this video entirely and you never take
action on it
then you know there's nothing better I
can do to help you so and we're not
selling anything yeah we're just what
we're doing we're just hanging out man
we're just talking about life like
I just don't know how else to word it
for people like you don't need to have
the problem yourself find a friend
that's in a big industry and see what
problems they have and then just be the
bubble person or if you don't want to
start that business just hit me up and
come work for me and I'll teach you the
ropes yeah our IR agencies I guess yeah
it's not whatever so but how are you
going about like actually building it
out or hiring like finding your
developers or what's your team structure
this time around we have a great
development team they're all in-house
we're doing it right we're doing it um
we're doing it like the I guess the more
traditional way
um but for us it's like you know this is
going to be a big business for us this
isn't this isn't like sell it on micro
on on acquire.com or anything like this
is like a proper like multi-8 maybe nine
figure business that that we're building
um you know we want to have the proper
infrastructure to do that
what do you think out of all the
software companies you've started like
what were problems you ran into that you
didn't think would be problems or what
was something that you basically like
believed going into it that turned out
to be completely untrue
build it and they will come is not true
okay it's true to an extent yeah and
it's it's not that it's completely
untrue it's just not uh it's not like
the most accurate description of how
things actually work
um you actually have to Market your
product believe it or not like you
actually have to get eyeballs on your
product for it to work that should be a
core thought process before even
choosing what product to make is your
ability to get eyeballs on it in the
first place in my opinion absolutely a
first time founder focuses more on
product than they do on distribution a
second time founder focuses more on
distribution than product and I am even
with product LED growth absolutely I'm I
am a embodiment of that we waited way
too long to launch Media kits we even
talked about that right because I was
too focused on product I thought the
product had to be perfect versus this
time around our product has been
launched for six months already in a
beta like we we've had paying users for
six months and we haven't even launched
publicly yet has the course of the
product changed absolutely your initial
idea was yeah absolutely now 100 and
this time around we focused on
distribution through Partnerships and
um you know we own one of the largest
Facebook groups in our industry and like
there's these other like you built that
first yeah absolutely so we built the
distribution channels before we even
built the product versus at media kits
we built the product and then we were
scrambling to figure out distribution so
go into the Facebook group that's kind
of interesting I don't think a lot of
people would think about that I'm a huge
Community guy and I see the value of
that so explain your thought process
yeah um yeah basically we uh we started
a Facebook group that now has thousands
of members in a very specific Niche
um and we're just in their thought
leadership we don't even we don't even
sell our software in there it's
literally just for business owners in
this Niche to connect with other
business owners and that's that's
literally all it's for and they just
kind of help each other out they talk
about certain things and then the best
part is we don't have to promote our
software because our customers will
promote our software for us in this
Facebook group and so all we have to do
is just be the stewards of like Good
Vibes and like you know good
conversations like you know as long as
as long as nobody's in there selling or
promoting anything you know as long as
there's no spam as long as there's no
negativity or hate happening in the
group like that's all we're there for is
to moderate that
um it just Grows by Word of Mouth you
know these people invite their friends
and then our customers will go in there
and talk about how amazing our software
is without us even having to ask them to
do it communities are probably the most
valuable part of the internet and
absolutely all you have to do like it
sounds it's not you create a place and
then you like just maybe share some
resources to start it off and you start
telling people one by one by one hey
there's this Facebook group for all car
people there's a Facebook group where
you can learn about this and we can
share this interest and share our
problems yeah then you get like 20
people in there they start talking to
each other yeah then someone else comes
in they're like hey welcome to the group
and it just starts to like yeah live
it's like a living breathing organism
dude I think Facebook groups are the
most underrated thing in 2023 Facebook
specifically there's online groups
Facebook groups specifically
specifically Facebook groups I use
Circle so why Facebook or Discord so why
Facebook well so for me specifically
like because we're in like we're selling
to small business owners like that's
where they are like that's really the
only place they are that's the only
answer to that question yes um but no
but I see your point though I think
Discord communities are great for young
um discords for younger people
absolutely circles if you want it
proprietary but Facebook is where if you
are older demographic that are into cars
that's where they live then you make
Facebook groups sure you pick one you
need to be intentional I guess yeah if
you can be and this goes back to like
this this is the human nature in general
this goes back to like Casey and I
throwing those parties in in the
Hollywood Hills to to network and meet
people like if you can be the steward of
like a good time or a positive
environment for people to hang out and
meet peers like you will be seen as an
authority in that industry right and so
it's like I had no business like the
founder of Myspace came to one of my
parties in LA that Casey and I threw and
like I have a cell phone number now
because of that and and this is just
it's just one random example but like
No 19 year old kid has has enough like
enough credibility to to like hang out
with the founder of Myspace for three
hours at some crazy mansion in the
Hollywood Hills the only reason that
that happened for me and for Casey is
because we were the stewards of this
event and he wanted to meet the people
that put it on and this same thing goes
for online communities right it's like
if I can bring a bunch of like-minded
people together on the Internet or you
on Circle you if you can do that and
bring people together and have them
enjoy what they're doing and have a
great time and and talk and network and
you're the one that's facilitating it
like you're going to reap the rewards of
being that facilitator so Community is
everything on the internet and but the
reason he does this for your SAS and
you're doing it preemptively because
this is this would have been a good
answer you didn't do it with media kids
I guess but when you're building the
product this is a perfect answer build a
community of people that have that same
problem preemptively yeah so then you
have a group of 3 000 people that you
can then be like oh and magically guys
out of nowhere I found this software
tool yeah exactly we created it but I
think it'll help you guys because it
helped us a lot so you fostered that now
you have your core user base and there's
a Facebook group for them to give you
feedback and iterate what you're already
benefiting from yep it's genius and so
same thing goes for like that's why I
have my YouTube channel like yeah I was
talking about a way different subject a
year and a half ago then I make a video
on AI when chat gbt came out it's not
when the API came out but when chatgpt
came out got popular I understood the
concept made a video on it now everyone
thinks I'm an AI guy yeah and like some
huge AI expert I get how it's good for
people and how it's going to benefit in
business yeah but like on the internet
people perceive you yeah and there's
always like there's always got to be
somebody who can articulate information
in a digestible way yeah and even like
the example earlier that you made where
I tried to explain something and then
you explained it way simpler than I did
it's like that's that's a skill like
that's super power and I think that's
why your content does well it is solely
my intention like yeah I optimize for
understanding in as few words as
possible yeah that's the goal of the
channel yeah so I'm glad I appreciate
you saying yeah of course but brother
you are super successful in software and
that's what we're tackling right now so
this is something that I'm actually
genuinely interested in and so have you
found like any sort of like actual
marketing channels outside of organic
product like growth that worked for you
guys like you said you use tick tock
with Josh Richards but he was an
investor did you guys try Facebook ads
anything you didn't see working
um I mean yeah we've done everything
we've done Facebook ads Tick Tock ads
Snapchat ads
um you know my new company is a lot of
like in-person like uh trade shows and
and Expos and stuff like that
um but yeah I mean I think it's
different for every SAS company I think
you just the fundamental question you
need to ask because I I don't want to I
don't want to go into a whole monologue
about Facebook ads even though I even
though we could
um if it's not applicable for you but
like as a as a software founder
what you have to ask yourself is where
do my customers live where do they hang
out where do they spend their time and
then where are my competitors hanging
out and spending their time and that
should lead you to the answer to that
question of how do I Market to these
produce your competitors you more so
mean where are they like marketing to
if you take one of your customers and
open up their credit card statement all
the other businesses that they're buying
where do those businesses find your
customers how are they marketing yeah
and then just do what they're doing
essentially okay well don't don't copy
what they're doing but understand that
there are certain channels in certain
ways whether it's
um you know like inbound outbound
selling like you know uh organic
marketing paid paid marketing like
whatever it might be like there's so
many different marketing Avenues and
strategies and channels that you can
utilize but you have to first understand
which ones your customers are actually
on and where they spend their time and
their attention and odds are if they've
if they're marketing on those platforms
they've been doing in the business for
years they probably have figured that
one out yeah exactly take an educated
guess yeah that they didn't they know
what they're doing yeah okay so who do
you learn from because you found success
really young how old are you now 23 yeah
you're still really young
you're killing it so where did you learn
this from
um so I think that I've always I like to
think that I'm like a student of life
like I just love I love just digesting
information and it was a really weird uh
pivot for me like from like the internet
marketing world to like the
venture-backed like startup World those
are two very different communities that
very rarely overlap ironically Jasper is
a great example of one company that did
overlap because those guys came from
like the marketing internet marketing
world and now they're like a big VC
backed SAS company but it's very rare
um and so yeah I mean I I try to consume
content kind of from all sides whether
it's like you know a uh a keynote on
Venture Capital by Sam Altman or
something like that on YouTube or you
know a video by Iman or by you like I'm
I'm always trying to just kind of learn
from everybody that has different
perspectives on things and take the
things that apply to my business and and
apply them
um and I think
that's one of that's one of the skills
that that if people can learn that early
is is really powerful is understanding
that not every piece of device even not
every piece of advice that Brett and I
are giving you in this video is going to
be applicable to what you're doing but
there's at least something I'm sure and
if you can identify what that is and
then take it and actually take action on
it then you know that's the most
important part so again software's like
really honestly straightforward to see
success with if you can see a problem
and you can fix the problem yep it'll
work for you it'll work for somebody
else now you just need to tell other
people that this solution exists it's
simple it's not easy that's a really
that's that's what I like to say
why do you think I guess the barriers to
entry you raise money for your new one
yeah I did a little bit strategically so
you also you just found investors that
you think could get you into those type
of businesses exactly that you saw
before yeah and so you're this is the
now you have the mindset of giving them
the opportunity and then it's a
no-brainer because they know they have
the connections yeah and and of course
like the second time around you know
once you have like an exit under your
belt it it instills a lot more
confidence in investors they're like oh
he's done this before he knows what he's
doing right and that's why I say that to
say that it's really important in my
opinion that everybody's first business
is bootstrapped I do not recommend
raising money for your very first
business I do not recommend starting a
software company as your very first
business I think if you can start a
Professional Services business a
marketing agency something similar to
that Iman talks about this all the time
on his YouTube channel if you can start
as a freelancer turn that into an agency
turn that into a cash flowing business
have some cash and then start something
like you know even
um to use Oliver as an example again
like a cpg company that's selling
physical Goods cpg software very similar
in the fact that they have very high
startup costs you're not going to do
that as a first-time entrepreneur you
have to sell something that's scalable
that has low overhead like marketing
services or or some sort of agency model
that you can do to stack some cash get
some experience then you've kind of like
earned the right to move into something
like d2c or or software and I truly feel
that way
and the cool thing is you can start a
Services business that's in the same
niche as the software company that you
might want to eventually start right you
did you were a marketing agency for car
people exactly yes so that that's a
great example like if you can go and
figure out the pain points of a certain
industry by providing services to them
that you know something that's
unscalable that's that's not sexy that's
not you know gonna get get you some
crazy multiple or some crazy acquisition
but purely just to learn about your
Target customer and to learn how to run
a business and file your taxes and just
the basic stuff right then you can go
and and start a software business I do
believe that like your first business
has to be a service agency business of
some sort it could be mowing lawns you
could have a lawn mowing business and
then the people that are booking your
services don't like they are just
calling you on the phone you're like
what if I just made a Marketplace for
people in my local area to find people
to mow their lawn yeah that's your
software company and you can build that
on bubble with a template with no code
absolute lawn mowers of Arizona even
though there's no grass here you might
not see that success yeah maybe not here
but if that makes sense in your area you
just sell that as a service then you see
a problem that people are having a hard
time booking people and then you make a
software company around that and you
just use those people and they're like
oh I don't like it it's clunky I'd
rather just call you then maybe you have
a bad problem you're making me want to
go start an artificial turf company in
Arizona but that's a service is
literally anything just so you can learn
the problems yes and then you can build
a software out of that because
objectively software is the best
business model but it's not maybe so
it's good software is beginner friendly
but not first business not first time
friendly yeah not first time so you
could it could be your first business if
you understand a business if you have a
job you need to have some conceptual
understanding of how to run a business
and and at least some conceptual
understanding of how software works and
how it scales and how to get
distribution and if you've worked in a
business you understand how business
works for sure I think another another
great thing I I really like to to push
back against this idea on like on
YouTube and like this whole like
internet marketing like kind of like
self-help industry I think pushes like
the anti-college anti-job kind of
narrative and I completely disagree with
that I I push it hard my next video is
very anti-collete so here's the thing
that's fine that's fine for context I've
never had a job and I didn't go to
college the point that I'm making though
is I think sometimes for some people it
might be good to go and get a job at a
company that's similar to a to an in an
industry that's similar to something
that you want to start a business in and
I think sometimes you might even learn
more doing that oh yeah than trying to
start something from scratch and just
failing over and over again I am
anti-college yeah a thousand percent not
anti-job necessarily I wouldn't I don't
think I could ever do it unless it was
for that specific reason if I was so
aware of what I wanted to do for a
living so intentionally then it would
make sense to go work for a company to
learn the industry three learn the tools
they use learn how they communicate and
learn their problems then go do it
myself but it'd have to be hyper
intentional yeah I just don't think
people that are just starting out at 18
are even close to knowing what industry
they want to work in yeah and so they
don't do that but yeah that's a really
good point but going and just going and
just working for a business that's run
by an entrepreneur that is like an
entrepreneurial culture is it doesn't
even matter what industry is in you're
going to learn so much about how to run
a business how to do customer service
how to you know take care of your
employees like there's so many things
that are intangible that you and I
probably had to learn the hard way
because we've never worked somewhere
yeah right it's like I think about this
all the time I'm like damn like things
like HR and like payroll taxes and like
all these things that I I don't know how
they work because I've never been on the
flip side so I'm like oh man like if I
had just worked a regular job for like a
year I would probably know how these
things work but I don't and so I have to
figure it out on the Fly and you pay for
that yeah exactly you literally pay for
that yeah yeah that lack of knowledge
and typically you just have to hire
someone who then has done it before
exactly the only way you do learn
exactly interesting so do you think that
I just don't know like what how what age
were you when you started consuming
oh like 15 14 because I feel like all
everyone I've had on this podcast all of
us in our Circle all lived the same life
14 to 15 years old we were all watching
the Ecom smma YouTube yeah yeah yeah
then we all kind of went to these
networking events out in California
until we all met and then now everyone's
at this 22 to 25 range making hundreds
of thousands if not millions of dollars
dude that's how that's how Iman and I
met I was making smma content on YouTube
when like I had like a couple thousand
subscribers and so did Iman he had like
a couple thousand subscribers and this
is back in like 20 16 like late 2016 and
he like shot me a DM I still have it I
went back and like read it the other day
because I was like I was like looking at
his channel I'm like damn I'm so proud
of this guy like this is crazy but like
he reached out to me he's like hey Karen
like you know great to connect like I
like like your smma content on YouTube's
cool and like we just kind of hit it off
and we've stayed in touch ever since and
now he's like the biggest Creator on the
platform in that industry it's like it's
so impressive yeah it just takes
everything so serious and it's just
become such quality so he deserves
everything absolutely but it's also
interesting to me to see and he's so
young dude yeah just been in the game
since 14. it's so cool yeah but uh it's
cool for me to see also because I'm a
little older I'm 26 and so I'm starting
to see like this like
because I was watching Iman when I was
like five years ago in my SMA yeah but
now we're seeing like these new wave of
like a new generation of influencers all
in the same coming up with no code SAS
AI yeah the new like generation
businesses of the future is what I call
them yeah and so it's really cool to see
that it's like it works we kind of laid
that framework down because it's like
almost like one of the first generations
of like internet money kids
running Facebook ads the gurus abuse
everybody yeah like if we just went
through it I love I love uh Bia haza
yeah he's like one of my favorites and
then there's this kid called uh Kaden
boof I don't know if you've seen him on
Tick Tock but you gotta check it out
he's hilarious he'll take like these
these like super basic concepts like
like mowing lawns and stuff like that
and he'll just go out and like make a
bunch of money doing it but he has like
this comedic effect to it and the videos
are hilarious kids like 17 or 16. what's
the angles like because it's like it's
easy he's just showing people how easy
it is to go out and make money doing
stuff almost everyone's just like in
their mind yeah but but he makes it into
like a skit so it's hilarious but anyway
yeah like there's so many kids doing
this and it's it's incredible to see so
I also find it so interesting
of like the influencer dynamic of like
growing a following then do you start
the business or start the business then
grow following and so I do want to ask
you because you made YouTube videos like
way back in the day and you have what
like over like probably 11 12 kids yeah
something like that yeah but you have
videos with hundreds of thousands of
views but you took when you started
Media Kids you stopped yeah so and I
still I I've been like basically not on
the internet for like the last six
months because I've been building my new
business you sold everything yeah I did
um I'm of the opinion that like so my
new business my new business does not
benefit from my personal brand at all
right it's just not like my my personal
brand is like in the same space as like
younger guys that are like up and coming
in business and like I'm selling to you
know brick and mortar small business
owners with my new my new company so I
just kind of made the decision like my
personal brand has been amazing to me
over the last six years it's allowed me
to connect with guys like you and Iman
and Casey and Jr and all these guys and
it's amazing but but for me like I've
just recognized that I've I've picked a
lane that doesn't require me to be like
on the internet and so I've kind of
taken a step back do you prefer that I
do I think it's more peaceful
and I don't want my business to be
dependent on me because it's less
sellable and so I think there are people
that do it really well like there's
plenty of people that have a personal
brand that's really big and also a
business that's unrelated that makes a
bunch of money and that's great but if
if somebody's business relies on their
personal brand that's just that's not
for me it's not something that I want to
do because I don't see it I don't see it
as having longevity I prefer to talk to
people who don't have personal Brands
even though I'm in this group too like a
lot of the success of your business if
from a personal brand is solely because
of your personal brand and that actually
almost is the business you know what I'm
saying yeah and that's why you're
successful so when I can talk to people
who don't have a huge following but
their business is making millions it's
like you know it's because they're
tactics and their product was so good
yeah and everybody everybody realizes
this eventually like you see all these
influencers launching product lines that
are like branded separately and like all
these things and uh even Iman like his
software company it's like yeah it
benefits from his personal brand but
like hopefully they'll be able to keep
that separate yeah so it's like you know
people people realize this eventually
and and you know I think for me it's
like maybe I'll come back on YouTube and
Instagram one day and like try to grow
my personal brand in you know in the
next few years but for now I'm kind of
just keeping a low profile I mean I
guess that's why but that's why Alex
hermosi came back like so heavy for sure
YouTube for sure because he saw how like
powerful like Kylie Jenner and well Mr
beastware but he also sold his business
and it was it was like that's it and he
was doing something different now so now
he has a really cool model yeah the
acquisition.com model is really cool
why'd you sell everything move to Bali
you don't know how much time how many
times I've fantasized about that dude I
haven't texted you all day dude dude I
know I know like yeah it's uh it was
amazing yeah so for context I lived in
Bali for four months
um and it was it was a few things so
selling media kits was like it's a big
thing for me because it was like my
identity like it's all I did for two and
a half three years it's all I was
focused on and so having that weight off
my shoulders like you know investors
employees like you know among like
issues with the software bugs I asked
you about that one what was it like was
having investors really stressful it
wasn't stressful like on a day-to-day
basis but like on a macro level yeah
because like you owe people money and
you got to make sure that's
psychological I think that would really
impact me yeah so it was you know it was
the first time in my life where I had no
responsibilities or obligation like when
I sold media kits I stayed at the
company for a little while and then I
then I left
um and I had no responsibilities I had
gotten rid of my apartment I had uh I
had sold all my cars I had sold media
um and I literally just had zero
obligation I had no employees I had no
investors I had nothing I was just free
and I was like I knew I wanted to build
my next SAS company and you know my so
my business partner Caden and I were
like all right where can we go for like
90 days to just lock in and be focused
time zone doesn't matter
um you know distance doesn't matter
um you know price to a certain extent
doesn't really matter because like we're
just gonna go somewhere nice and just
enjoy it and like especially like in
your early 20s like having like
basically no responsibilities I don't
have a dog or anything like I don't have
a girlfriend like car guy I'm surprised
yeah you know I had it for like two and
a half years so I was kind of ready for
the next thing but
um but yeah man it was just great like
being able to go there and just live out
of a suitcase for four months and just
do whatever you want like was there like
a clear goal like an outcome you wanted
or like to build my next company to
decide what it was or you already had
the idea we already had the idea it was
to build the MVP gotcha and also that
was on like the business side it was to
build the MVP for my next business and
then on the personal side it was kind of
like just like this sounds super cliche
but like ReDiscover myself like what are
my core values and beliefs what do I
want the next three to five years of my
life to look like how am I going to kind
of like reinvent myself after media kits
because so much of my personal brand and
my like reputation was wrapped up in
media kits and I I wanted to you know
pivot away from that
um you know hormozi has even talked
about this recently he uses the example
um who's the actor from Wolf of Wall
Street yeah no the other guy Jonah Hill
Matthew McConaughey Matthew McConaughey
yeah I think her Mosey made a video
about this he's like Matthew McConaughey
McConaughey used to do you like rom-coms
and then he disappeared for a couple
years came back did like you know more
serious characters and like I kind of
went through the same thing as like you
go through these Ebbs and flows in your
life and your career like almost like
these character arcs where it's like
Kieran O'Brien the the marketer like the
internet marketer guy and then it's like
Karen O'Brien the SAS founder in like
the influencer space and so you know 23
years old now having gone through the
kind of those two phases like this next
one is is a whole different identity
it's a whole different kind of like like
brand and and it's a whole different way
of that I want people to think about me
and more importantly that I want to
think about myself and so it was kind of
just like a reset it was like I was off
social media I deleted everything off my
phone it was just like a cleanse so it's
almost like people the world's always
trying to put you in a box to like
categorize you to understand you yeah I
love the fact that people like Kanye
West was like the best one like yeah
completely reinvented yeah great example
yes because he used to be the shutter
Shades guy when I was like yeah and he
went to ease this was completely
obviously like sometimes sometimes you
just gotta change your environment to be
able to see things like from a different
perspective so I highly recommend oh
yeah you know if if any like young
people are watching like go out and see
the world like you don't have to have a
bunch of money to do it either like you
know you can these businesses were
talking about starting you could do that
from your laptop from anywhere you like
evolve as a person if you go to like a
third terrible country or like not
necessarily third world but like I went
to the country Colombia by myself oh
yeah like traveled there by myself or
one of my agency clients and trying to
just communicate with people who don't
speak English and like a meals two
dollars like dude your whole worldview
shifted yeah traveling to a third world
country and then more importantly what
you just mentioned solo travel is so
important like I think everybody should
do a multiple week if not multiple month
long solo trip somewhere with no friends
because it's 100 on you to figure out
and solve every problem you're facing
exactly and then you don't have Wi-Fi
half the time yeah yeah it's such a it's
such a paradigm shift and it's it's just
like a different perspective on life and
um yeah I recommend it to everybody yeah
so what have you thought about like
as you've come back from that
have you like tried to like I feel like
there's a huge shift in like team size
going down
are you like optimizing for like the
most lean team possible or do you like
view this is like I want to make this a
thousand person company no headcount is
not a measure of success and that one of
the things in Silicon Valley it always
used to be raising money how many
raising money and how many employees you
have like those are stupid metrics no
what's your ebitda what's your Revenue
you know what's your net retention
what's your what's your Revenue per
employee like those are the things that
I care about and yeah for this new
Venture like I'm focusing on quality of
people way more than quantity of people
one a player is worth five C players how
have you gone about finding them
I think it's just intuition man and like
this is one of the things like
it's all this stuff when I was coming up
when I was like basically like a
freelancer running my agency I always
thought stuff like
stuff like culture and stuff like
um you know your values and your mission
statement and all this stuff I thought
it was like cliche and kind of stupid
but if you actually do it right and you
actually like do it in a way that's
that's profound and that that people can
get behind and like turn it into like a
real movement
um then you know the results of that are
like crazy so there's more fulfillment
that people can get out of like working
on a problem that feels important yeah
absolutely than just money yeah
especially people who aren't naturally
entrepreneurs they want to feel like
they are important at the job they're
playing a big role and they're working
on something that's actually making the
world a better place yeah 100 and you
have to be you have to evolve so much as
a leader to attract and a lot of it like
the law of attraction is very real in
every aspect of of life and to attract a
player talent you have to be an a play
and like an A plus leader right and not
saying that I am I'm working towards it
every single day I I don't think
anybody's a perfect leader but like
I've been like another thing I did in
Bali is I studied leadership a lot and I
read a lot of books and
um really went down like this Rabbit
Hole of like human psychology and how
that like relates to leadership and so
you know
for for people that are watching if
you're thinking about you know starting
like an AI startup or starting like a no
code like a bubble company or or
starting a lawn mowing business it
doesn't really matter what you're doing
um eventually you'll get to a point
where you need to start hiring employees
and building a team and understanding
how to do that in a way that builds real
culture and that actually gets buy-in
from your team members and like truly
does that right not just you know like
the facade of doing it where people
stick around for six months and then
they leave like if you can really nail
that like business at a high level is a
people game and that's it like product
IP patents trademarks you know all that
stuff it doesn't matter you're in the
people business if you can't nail that
then none of the rest of the stuff I
just listed really matters too much
because it'll just implode yeah it's
like human capital your company is the
average value of the average IQ of your
company in a way yeah it's like if you
have really high quality people you're
going to take it away further absolutely
I really
do you like
go for all full-time employees or do you
lean towards contractors more
um we're very contractor heavy yeah so
there's no right answer
um everybody on our team right now uh
except for like one person I think is is
full-time and that's very intentional
because we want to build the culture in
that way I think sorry is it because
sorry you finish no no you're good I
think a hybrid is is the right approach
in the beginning even like this new
business that we started we were a
hybrid approach in the beginning
um but like the status of an employee
being a 1099 or a W-2 isn't what makes
them a contractor right it's it's about
how ingrained they are in your culture
and so you can make like someone who's
technically like on paper or contractor
you can make them a part of your culture
and then you know eventually transition
them over to like a full-time position
when you're when you're able to so
that's all semantics it doesn't matter
is it more so to sell your company
yeah I'm not I'm not worried about that
it's it's like it's more just
like building building a team that
actually cares about what you're doing
right like a freelancer is not going to
care about what you're doing so I think
there's like there's different types of
of tools in the toolbox right it's like
you've got like your exacto knives and
you've got like your machetes it's like
you you can hire and and the the
verbiage that I like to use is like
missionaries versus Mercenaries
so your mercenaries like your I know
this one yeah exactly yeah your
mercenaries like your machete and your
missionaries like your exacto knife it's
like they're for different purposes and
so your your mercenaries are the
Freelancers the guys that are just going
to come in they're gonna get [聽__聽] done
and they're just gonna do it because
they're getting paid to do it and there
is a time and a place for that in every
sometimes there's a time and a place for
that in you know in a business for a
very long time even once you have an
amazing culture there's still a place
for outside Consultants you know
mercenaries to come in and just and just
do one task really well and then leave
like there's absolutely a place for that
um but the core of your team should be
missionaries they should be people that
are there for the mission that you're on
that are Marching with you that are like
side by side like shoulder to shoulder
with you in combat so to speak like
those are the people that you want there
day in and day out and every now and
then you might have to bring in a
mercenary to get something really
specific done do you try to optimize for
everyone to work in person
uh we're balancing that we're about to
open an in-person office here
um but uh but yeah we do have employees
that are in other cities that are in the
same city as each other and they'll work
in person together at like wework or
something yeah Okay cool so you were
able to achieve a lot of success very
young like you're still young but even
before your software companies you were
successful and like what do you
attribute that to what do you think it
was in you that like
so many people like can't ever wrap
their head around making ten thousand
dollars a month or can't ever wrap their
head around even starting their own
company so what like what was it how
were you able to do that bro
I you know I think about this a lot and
I don't know like innately what it was
like I always as a kid like I always
wanted to do things like differently I
always had like this yeah like I I had
this like I never did well with
authority like coaches and teachers and
stuff like that I I always wanted to
kind of do things my own way lemonade
stands flipping sneakers on ebay like I
did all that stuff and I don't know like
innately what drove that but
I always think that it was like kind of
a fear of being average like I grew up
in a like a middle class family like I
wasn't I wasn't poor by any means like I
never had to worry about where my next
meal was coming from but like you know I
went on like a vacation like every other
year maybe and like my my dad drove a
Honda Accord and like we lived in a like
a modest house in a modest neighborhood
and like there just wasn't anything
crazy like I never I never saw an
entrepreneur no no but both neither my
parents were entrepreneurs so I didn't
even know what the word entrepreneur was
until I was like 17. and so
I say all that to say that like I grew
up in that like typical like white
picket fence type you know type
situation and you know sometimes like a
lot of people that grow up in very
underprivileged situations they they
hustle because they want to get out of
that and I totally understand and
empathize with that
for me it was more so like I see the
people around me and they're kind of
like they're just scraping by like
they're they're they're fine like
they're living for the weekend
essentially exactly and the bare minimum
to get my next to get off exactly and I
just didn't I didn't resonate with that
I always knew from a young age I'm like
I want to do I know there's something
Beyond this like I know there's another
level above this that I can get to
um and I just wanted that I didn't even
know what it what it was necessarily I'm
just like I want to do more with my life
than than what I'm exposed to on a
day-to-day basis I'm so fascinated by
how many like pure quantity like 20 to
25 year old millionaires there were 20
years ago or 30 years ago before the
internet it'd be interesting I know so
many kids making 100K a month so many
people that have cracked the code with
whether they're a go high level
affiliate or they're running an smma or
Drop Shipping whatever it is there's so
many and it's just because like if you
just fill your mind with the right
information on the internet like just
got to do the work it's just execution
yeah like there's I don't I just don't
get it
how whatever I've just always felt like
an entrepreneur naturally so I've just
always been watching these YouTube
videos yeah and over time to start doing
something one thing leads to the next
one thing leads to the next you meet
better people cooler people yeah slowly
rise to the top feels really long in the
time like when you're in it but dude I
want to touch on that too man like the
people you do it with is everything like
everything like having a friend having a
friend group and a network of people
that are like killing it in their own
respective ways and being able to be
around them and spend time with them
like that's why like Casey Jr and I and
a few other people like we all moved out
here Seb two like we all moved out here
to Scottsdale around the same time like
when we're all like 17 18 years old you
know and like that was I think I
attribute a lot of My Success to that
just being around those guys like most
important thing we weren't even doing
the same stuff none of us are even in
the same industry doing the same thing
we're all doing like the stuff we're
doing couldn't be more different in
terms of how we make money but we were
just around each other and like we go to
dinners and we'd hang out and I think
like a big big piece of it is just being
around like-minded people I mean how
much has been seeing ishan's success
been motivating you from afar oh dude
absolutely absurd like I love that guy
and so it's just like we're not even
remotely in the same industry but just
seeing that makes me want to be better
and so yeah that's so so critical and
that's what I was seeking for a long
time which is what online communities
are also great for especially when
you're starting and the problem when
everyone is Young is I feel like they
think money is the issue and that is
like really not the issue from
to go to attended 100K really isn't
money no it's just information and your
T like you're who's who you're doing it
with essentially yeah have you been are
you doing the next one with Casey
uh no Casey's uh Casey's not involved in
this one he's he's doing his own thing
also in the AI space so if you're not
doing something if you're not building
Ai No code SAS or AI SAS
I don't know why bro yeah Casey's got a
really free one I know is doing an aiss
Casey's got a really cool product it's
basically like uh you could even use it
for for this episode it's like AI for
podcasts so it does like show notes and
descriptions um and titles for podcasts
you just uploaded I'll do my uh
timestamps timestamps yeah
you got a customer Bud there you go
because I hate doing that oh let me just
do half of it and like loading yeah but
that's really cool okay so but
ultimately like
you should be doing things for free for
people like getting access to higher
quality information getting access to an
industry whatever it is do a favor for
people show them you have a skill yeah
is there like any skills that you had or
like what are like your most if you had
to like Flex right now and you're good
at something like what are your hard
skills like I can say for me video
lighting oh dude oh by the way yeah dude
like this your setup is crazy I'm a nerd
bro yeah I love it I'll talk about
lighting for 10 hours if you want but
dude I need help with mine this is my
first I got you yeah do you record yeah
I just in my apartment like I'm like I'm
even just my zoom call set up let me
come over I'll get you um nice ass
webcam the whole [聽__聽] hell yeah uh I
think my skills are
um like product and marketing and when I
say product specifically I mean like
understanding consumer psychology and
why people want something like I I can
look at a software product or I mean to
an extent like any kind of product but
um software products specifically and I
can understand why people would want it
why why they maybe wouldn't want it
um and if I had that product like how to
Market to them did you choose that skill
you know to an extent I think some of it
is innate some of it is like just like
Nate it's like nature versus nurture
type thing right I think some of it is
nature but I also think that spending
the first four or five years of my
entrepreneurial career in marketing and
having to think like a marketer has
always made me now that I'm building
software products makes me think about
my software products through a
marketer's lens like when I'm building a
product I'm thinking about how am I
going to Market and sell this once it's
once it exists and I think thinking
about it through that lens kind of
allows me like a unique perspective
versus if I was like a software engineer
by trade you know you might not be
thinking through that same lens okay and
then what about uh marketing as far as
like yeah myself yeah I think I think
marketing I mean it's it's a very broad
term but like in software specifically
just understanding how and where and
when to reach your target audience like
how to do activations which channels to
pick how much to spend on things like
you know the the little like the little
hacks like the like the like hacking the
organic Tick Tock algorithm for media
kits or you know you know getting into
Facebook groups and like you know doing
organic like guerrilla marketing on
Facebook groups for my new company like
um you know understanding paid ads I've
spent like tens of millions of dollars
on paid ads um as a as a marketing
agency I got to manage like you know
almost 100 million dollars worth of AD
budgets and that gave me like a plethora
of knowledge about like things like
pay-per-click and and right and Facebook
ads and so
um I'm always just trying to kind of
expand my skill set in like the realm of
marketing and understand the different
types of marketing the different
channels how it's done but the most
important thing is is human psychology
that's the one thing that's never going
to change say it louder right so it's
like the channel might change the
strategy might change the tactics might
change the one thing is never going to
change is why does somebody buy
something 100 if I started my YouTube
channel when I was 20
would not be successful at all but the
fact that I was doing a marketing agency
around 2122 that's where I learned to
say make like optimize for understanding
yeah as few words as possible guys go go
Brett's thumbnails and titles go back
and ask yourself why did you click on
this video what made you click on this
video like making thumbnails and titles
on YouTube is a science and an art but
mainly a science and it's like that's
marketing like understanding
understanding what makes people want to
click on a video like in and of itself
someone from Iman yeah Iman is another
the best I hope he's watching this
because we've shouted him out so many
times but yeah
the best titles yeah every single person
I tell absolutely it's a clear point you
know exactly who it's for and what
you're getting out of it and yeah seven
words 50 characters it's so impressive
yeah it's an art form but that's what I
was good at marketing like messaging
yeah making people understand something
really quickly but as far as like the
tactics or the media buying or whatever
never my strong suit but the language so
yeah that's a skill that has now
translated to every business I've ever
done or every aspect of my life that
I've gone through yeah and psychology is
like my most I just watch psychology
videos all the time yeah all the time
it's one of the most interesting things
for me to learn about
um I talked to Dan Co the other day and
he said he told me about the nine stages
of ego development watch that because
you can like really I will that sounds
interesting actualized.org it's really
interesting dude but this has been like
really like
I don't know how else to put it because
this wasn't like one where we were like
getting like all like excited and hype
and yeah and like mind blown but it's
like that should be why this podcast is
so valuable for people because it is so
straightforward and how to build a
successful SAS platform we've talked
about so much too like all over the
place yeah I feel like there's so many
nuggets in this and again I I truly hope
that people watching this like take
something from this video and apply it
to their lives and their businesses and
and and do something with it and send us
a message if you do like like let us
know that um you know that you've taken
it and and applied it so are there any
YouTube channels that you're a big fan
of right now I mean hermosi big one
um Iman of course
um yours
um that's probably not helpful because
you're already here
um but uh but yeah though I watch I
watch those and then
for SAS like Dan Martell makes good
um he's a good like like kind of SAS
YouTube channel so yeah it seems pretty
straightforward dude understand a job or
a space find a problem try to fix it
with software how did your hire
developers can I ask that real quick
sure yes one um there's a bunch of great
platforms of higher developers you can
find them on upwork sometimes you can
find good ones
um there's a platform called lemon.io
that we've used in the past that's
that's really good
um if you can like if you have the
luxury of this try to find them through
your network like if you know anybody
that has a software company or you like
you know someone who's a software
engineer try to get them to send
referrals your way that's always going
to be the best way
um you know just because they're going
to be a little bit more vetted and
you're not completely going into it dark
um you know and then another piece of
advice is like just try to have at least
a baseline understanding about how
software Works
um and like specifically like the types
of languages that you're going to be
building your product in you need to
have like at least a baseline
understanding there's plenty of YouTube
videos out there to teach you how like
react native works or how a node.js
works or whatever it is just have like a
baseline understanding so that you're
not completely like confused by what's
happening when you eventually do hire a
developer yeah I think uh Brandon always
says to hire like a
a like a technical advisor yeah for
someone to help you hire exactly at
least you can explain the idea to them
then they can explain it as like a
translator from us yeah because I would
be people would take advantage of me if
I just started talking dude it happened
at media kits man we went through two
Engineers that that we burned so much
money on and it just didn't work out I
don't know if I ever met a developer
who's told me they can't do what I'm
asking for so just keep that in mind
they're all going to say they can do it
better than the other guy yeah and so
you kind of have to really put those
types of people to the test absolutely
but or you just learn bubble but that is
one thing I want to say there's a really
cool I have a friend who literally
started learning about bubble like right
when I started talking about in January
within two months had a good grasp on it
and within two months after that had 25k
a month in bubble development agency
clients wow so not only can he use
bubble to build his own SAS he can now
cash flow a bubble Dev agency that's
amazing so I thought that was pretty
interesting because that's a really fast
come up and yeah it's a good skill
that's going to be relevant for a long
time but guys follow Kieran this can
cameras that follow Kieran on all social
media platforms Karen O'Brien what is
your main that you're most active on
dude none honestly right now sorry to
um yeah I mean like Instagram I'll post
stuff here and there
um yeah I don't know I I think maybe the
best way is to keep tabs on what I'm
doing like with my companies that's
probably a better way to to really learn
versus like the content I put out
because again I'm kind of like kind of
in like monk mode right now just kind of
focus on the business so do you put a
lot of focus on health or like like are
you not on social media specifically for
like dopamine reasons that and yeah I
mean I'm doing 75 hard right now it's my
fourth time doing it good um thank you
yeah I work out twice a day so just
don't have time to make content to be
honest have you like but have you like
consciously like put this is something I
actually do want to talk about real
quick yeah we're not saying goodbye yet
it's like monk mode you went to Bali for
this like how much that is something
that I actually neglected for a long
time was like quality of food I was
eating how much dopamine can like using
social media can affect your desire to
do work is that something that you were
big on at all or have you just been like
stent I so deleting social media off my
phone has been a big one like the owners
the only social media app I have on my
phone is Facebook because that's where
my customers are yeah but like there's
no Instagram like if you search
Instagram on my phone like it doesn't
exist so I think that's so yeah I think
the best advice I got from Alex Becker
was don't put yourself in a position
where you have to use willpower yeah
just make it not an option yeah and then
do the same thing like man if there's a
if there's a box of Oreos in my in my
pantry like I will eat it there's a if
there's a tub of ice cream in my freezer
I will eat the whole thing in one night
why don't you why don't you have Oreos
why don't you eat high school that's the
whole thing like I I just don't let let
myself have them like if I really have a
craving or something like that like I'll
get in my car and drive to like an ice
cream shop and have like a little thing
of ice cream but like yeah I just try to
keep my environment like conducive with
the type of life I want to live so I
keep healthy food in my fridge I keep
social media off my phone I don't my
phone is on my desk away from my bed
like you know I I just try to do what I
can to control the controllables why is
that important to control though what if
you didn't what would happen to you
day-to-day life I just noticed like you
just notice you're more distracted uh
you like you don't like you don't the
dopamine hits kind of like you have to
always search for more so you spend way
more time on these platforms like now
when I do go on Instagram and like look
at stuff or Twitter or whatever like I'm
going there I'm seeing like a couple of
my friends couple things that I like and
that's good enough for me like I don't
need to keep like Doom scrolling because
I'm so used to not having it in my hand
it's just it's they're designed to
addict you yeah food social media video
games yeah everything so
I don't know do you feel like there's I
feel like there's too much content on
self-help out there but it's just so
like it's like a fundamental thing yeah
and I always just ask like I want to be
a top performing person so I if I'm like
feeling tempted I'd be like what a top
performing person do this no and that
way you just optimize every aspect of
your life to get the most things done
absolutely and it's all just noise okay
sorry side note everyone every one of
our friend group like has an extreme
emphasis on that yeah and I just want to
point that out yeah it's it's a common
denominator I don't know a single person
that is at our level just eating like
[聽__聽] doing all this stuff we have we
have had our fair share of uh of
dopamine and you know nights out in
Vegas but yeah
here and there yeah yeah here and there
but yeah it is important to have fun
that's what we do it for yeah I love to
have fun yeah but not in the work week
or and it's like phases dude it's phases
of life we're dragging this goodbye out
okay guys Karen thank you see you later
thanks for watching guys appreciate it
that's fun bro