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Nima Tisdall & Christine Hebert, Blue Lobster - CivTech Alliance Global Scale-Up Programme, COP26 - YouTube
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-Thanks so much, Alex. My name is Nima.聽
- And I'm Christine -And we're the co-founders聽聽
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of Blue Lobster, a digital marketplace. We are聽
basically trying to digitalize and democratize聽聽
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the fishing industry. Not a small feat for a really聽
really traditional industry where not that much聽聽
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innovation has happened and it's definitely聽
kind of trilling on the sustainability agenda.聽聽
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Overall there kind of two things we can聽
look at with sustainability and fishing:聽聽
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how much we're fishing and how we're fishing.聽
How much? That's up to the governments, I hope聽聽
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they're making good progress on that just down聽
the road. But let's get into how we're fishing.聽聽
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What we look at is basically the methods. There聽
are some really destructive methods that we're聽聽
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currently using - 25% of the seafood that we eat聽
today is caught with bottom trawling and if you look聽聽
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at the scale of that problem, as you can see here,聽
bottom trawling releases just as much CO2 from the聽聽
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ocean floor as the entire flight industry. Now, how聽
many rays of hands, how many of you guys have ever聽聽
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been made to feel bad about flying? Kind of had聽
a little guilt when you got on a plane? So yeah,聽聽
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a lot of people. How many of you guys have then聽
in turn felt bad about eating bottom child fish?
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Still a few, okay, a very educated audience. but yeah,聽
but not as many, right? Because basically it is an聽聽
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overlooked area in terms of sustainability聽
and we want to do something about that. One of the聽聽
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reasons is that we don't know that much about what聽
is sustainable. Maybe because it's out of sight, out聽聽
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of mind under the ocean but basically there's no聽
economic incentive right now for fishermen to use聽聽
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sustainable methods that don't ruin our ocean聽
floor and protect things like biodiversity.
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This more or less comes from the fact that in the聽
seafood logistics chains, there are lots of actors.聽聽
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Between when the fish is caught and the fish聽
is bought we have an average 5 middlemen. Now聽聽
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that's a lot of people who have to get paid and聽
have to take profit out of that value chain, and聽聽
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in the end the fishermen are paid a pretty small聽
price for every fish that they land. In the Danish聽聽
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context you can see that 41% of our fishermen聽
have left the industry within only six years聽聽
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and unfortunately it's the wrong fishermen聽
leaving the industry. It's all the small guys聽聽
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who are using low impact methods because it's聽
consolidating on bigger fleets. Now this is kind聽聽
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of ironic. We're living in a time where climate聽
change seems to be on everyone's minds and聽聽
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we have this huge COP and people are聽
flooding all over the world to talk about it,聽聽
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yet our fishing fleets are actively聽
trending in the wrong direction.
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Now, some of the reasons for this is power first of聽
all powerful gatekeepers. There are very few buyers聽聽
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that the fishermen can sell to at this聽
point. Often on harpers there's you know maybe a聽聽
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couple of, and this basically means the fishermen聽
don't have a lot of bargaining power, they don't聽聽
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have options, they can't benefit from kind of聽
open market practices of bargaining about and聽聽
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having many buyers come together to increase聽
the prices. There's also a lot of administration聽聽
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and misinformation about how to buy 聽
directly from our fishermen, because it's a聽聽
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heavily regulated area. So the bureaucracy聽
around it also limits the amount of people聽聽
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who go and work directly with the fishermen. It's聽
easier in this case to just work with a wholesaler.
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And our solution basically, Christine will get into聽
it, but our solution is basically a tool that helps聽聽
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anyone procure directly from fishermen of all聽
sizes. It's kind of like an access programme, kind聽聽
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of like the CivTech programme, gives us access聽to green startups, gives us access to all these聽聽
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governments all over the world, in the same聽
way Blue Lobster gives procurers all over the聽聽
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world access to their local fishermen.聽
Sometimes a connection is all you need.聽聽
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-So what does this look like in practice?聽
Basically, we've created a B2B marketplace where聽聽
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we're connecting fishermen to their customers. And聽
in terms of the customers, we're really giving them聽聽
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access that they haven't been able to have聽
before to be able to make that first purchase,聽
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because of all of these barriers that Nima just聽
described. And on the fishermen side, because we're聽聽
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cutting down the number of middlemen that have聽
to carry that fish through the supply chain, the聽聽
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fishermen are able to earn more. In our case,聽
it's 2 to 4 times what they could earn聽聽
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in other contexts, like selling through聽
the auction or through other wholesalers.聽聽
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And how we're earning money through this is by聽
both a subscription fee and a transaction fee.
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And behind the scenes of this connection聽
that we're creating, there's all of this聽聽
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administrative requirements that are necessary聽
in order to buy directly from the fishermen. And聽聽
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that's automated purchase notes, when the聽
fisherman makes that direct sale they need聽聽
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to send a purchase note on to their customer.聽
The customer themselves needs to report the fish聽聽
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directly to the Ministry, the聽
fisherman has to report the catch,聽聽
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the landing catch, and if they do any dock sales聽
they need to report that. So there's a lot of聽聽
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administration that basically is preventing people聽
from making this direct connection and hard coding聽聽
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that continue the practices that are quite聽
inefficient and trending in the wrong direction.
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So, this is a heavily regulated industry,聽
as I guess you guys are hearing,
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but we have, basically, we're the first聽
company in Denmark to tap directly into聽聽
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the fishing ministries quota reporting system. That聽
means whenever a fish is sold through the platform,聽聽
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it's reported directly to the Ministry. So聽
we know that every single fish that's landed聽聽
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is accounted for. We know that it's coming out聽
of the ocean. We can keep an eye on 聽聽
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the health of the stocks in the sea, make聽
sure that we're not over fishing herring or cod.
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And yeah, the other reality of this situation聽
is that it's incredibly paper-based and聽聽
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error-prone. These are pictures of actual聽
slips of paper that we get from the fishermen聽聽
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and then, I don't know if you can see in the聽
background, there are little slips of paper聽聽
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put directly into the box of fish which is聽
wet and so often the pen bleeds, it's super聽聽
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hard to read, we have to call the fishermen. And even if they're really meaning to tell us聽聽
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exactly what it is that we're getting,聽
there's still huge rooms for error聽聽
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and miscommunication. So that is what we're聽
trying to fix by digitalizing all of this.聽聽
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And we have been operating actively in copenhagen聽
for 17 months through the pandemic, of course. But聽聽
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yeah, 17 months of actually being active. And聽
we have basically taken on the logistics and the聽聽
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operations, and really got into it to understand聽
what is it that's necessary in order to work聽聽
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directly with the fishermen. And we broke even in聽
June, and now we're in the process of outsourcing聽聽
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all of those operations to another partner.
And our aim is to become the tech platform that聽聽
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facilitates others to buy directly from fishermen,聽
anywhere in the world. And yeah, that's
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the next step. -Yeah, we're kind of in the process聽
of these next steps. So, as Chris says, we broke聽聽
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even and for us that was a proof of case. We聽
wanted to show that you could actually earn money聽聽
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working with these local fishermen, doing the聽
local sourcing. After that, we needed to, of聽聽
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course, test it against different contexts, so
over the summer, we started operating in Germany. We聽聽
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are now operating in both Berlin and Hamburg聽
and we're slowly in the process of getting all聽聽
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of it out of house in Copenhagen as well, which we聽
hope to conclude by the end of the year.聽聽
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And our ask to you is that hopefully someone聽
listening would also like to be on the journey聽聽
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of saving our oceans. We are currently fundraising,聽
so there's of course a little ask for that. If聽聽
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there's anyone interested in joining our little聽
scaling journey, as we like to be a little聽聽
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funny around here or at least we do our best,聽we're currently raising one million euros聽聽
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to bring us to seven new cities over the next聽
two years. But we also are really looking for聽聽
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any introductions to people, to governments聽
who would like to increase the data quality聽聽
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of the catch the fishermen are聽
reporting, of producer organizations that would聽聽
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like their fishermen to get paid a better price聽
or for big buyers who would like to get access聽聽
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to fresher sustainable fish. Thank you so much for聽
listening and I hope you will join our revolution.
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-Thank you so much.
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Well sorry, come in with a question, I know I've got a couple of questions聽聽
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anyway, just having heard some of聽
that, so no after you. 聽
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-Great work, girls. As a friend of mine likes to say,聽
good stuff. And what I was thinking about聽聽
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is how can you connect the local producers? How聽
do you identify them? And on your roadmap, so you're聽聽
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thinking about seven new countries right? So聽
how are you gonna connect with the local producers?聽聽
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because I understand the informality that you聽
mentioned, in Brazil it's the same. So you go to the聽聽
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beach, you have local markets where you buy聽the fish that is caught there and I really聽聽
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can't see room for digitization. Of course, there聽
is the digital divide and all, but specifically聽聽
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here in Europe, thinking about your roadmap, how聽
are you going to make these connections? Because聽聽
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it's easier, of course, when you're from Denmark,
understanding your local market, but when you聽聽
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go to Germany or go to France or Spain, how do聽
you pretend to do that? To make sure that you聽聽
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really cut the middle guy -I guess I聽can take that. In the Danish context,聽聽
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we just started going out and going down to the聽
harbours and started talking. And we could see that聽聽
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there was quite a ripple effect. Once聽
we started to work with one fisherman in a harbour,聽聽
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the other ones started to get curious and started聽
to poke around, and they observed us for a little聽聽
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while, and then we started to get contacted from聽
fishermen throughout Denmark. And we're also聽聽
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working closely with the low-impact fishermen聽
unions. There's a this umbrella organization聽聽
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throughout Europe and they are connected聽
to all of the fishermen. So I think as we go聽聽
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into new markets, we're also going to rely on their聽
collaboration to connect us to their union members.
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-First of all, huge congratulations. It seems like聽
an amazing platform you're building. Are there聽聽
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any protocols you have in place to聽
ensure that the fishermen that supply food on聽聽
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your platform use sustainable fishing methods? And聽
if so, is the ambition to start working with聽聽
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larger scale fishing operations and to implement聽
those practices onto those or influence those聽聽
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practices? -Right so, as it is right now, we're聽
working in a European context, so we can see聽聽
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through the databases that we're plugging聽
into, that the fishermen are using the sustainable聽聽
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practices. Right now it's at a point where we聽
have the capacity to ensure that they're all using聽聽
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low-impact methods, and as we scale through聽
Europe, we expect it to be very similar. That聽聽
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basically you're registering with the government聽
what methods you're using, so we can translate聽聽
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that into our database. If we go kind of into聽
less regulated markets that is a question that 聽
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we're talking about internally and聽
I think will mostly rely on local partners who聽聽
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can go out and verify the fishing methods that聽
are being used, because otherwise it would be聽聽
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self-reported data. So there has to be some kind聽
of collaboration, as Chris said, with
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these low-impact fishermen unions which are already聽
pushing the methods agenda, so they have a聽聽
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reason to be aligned. But to your question about聽
kind of the bigger vessels. We can聽聽
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work with bigger vessels as long as the methods聽
are right. So a lot of people think of us as like聽聽
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small boats only, but for us it's really about聽
the method. So you could be a big boat, as long聽聽
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as you're not harming the ocean floor and that you聽
have some way to discriminate about ensuring that聽聽
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you don't have lots of bycatch. Bycatch basically聽
is fish they didn't mean to catch, so like it could聽聽
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be endangered species or it could be really small聽
fish that were supposed to grow big and repopulate聽聽
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the oceans. As long as you're using good methods,聽
it doesn't matter your size. Of course, as we see it,聽聽
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our long-term ambition is to create an economic聽
incentive in the market that will help turn聽聽
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unsustainable fishing vessels into sustainable聽
fishing vessels. If we can continue, if we can keep聽聽
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the premium that we're currently at, we really do聽
believe that we can create an economic incentive聽聽
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and use kind of market practice, capitalistic聽
market forces to push the transition.聽聽
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-I've got a couple of questions. One, because聽
when we've been, and it's been great聽聽
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getting to know you both over the past three聽
months or so, and Blue Lobster as a company,聽聽
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and you talked about when聽
people record fish when they are landed,聽聽
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not when they're caught, so you could have聽
big trawlers that catch it on a particular聽聽
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day, freeze it but they don't log it until聽
it lands. So that's the bit that聽聽
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I find fascinating, is that we don't actually聽
know when our fish was actually caught.
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-Yeah, this is a huge issue and I think it's聽
something that people aren't super aware about.聽聽
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Like when you go to the grocery store, you can聽
see that there's a production date, but you will聽聽
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almost never see the date that it's聽
actually caught and part of it is because聽聽
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often the fishermen don't know. They'll go out for聽
a couple weeks at a time, they land it, they process聽聽
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it on the boat, and yeah, they stick it in a freezer,聽
and then when they land and you can look at the聽聽
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auction data, you'll see a range of potential catch聽
dates, which is the entire time that they were out.聽聽
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And then when it's packaged, that's聽
the date that you see as a customer.聽聽
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And I think this is just hugely misleading聽
and it's a big educational process we need to聽聽
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make everybody understand that that is not at聽
all showing you anything to do with
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when that fish was actually caught and it could聽
be quite old. A Danish study found that the fish聽聽
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that was in the grocery stores which was anywhere聽
between 5 and 16 days, the fresh non-frozen fish. So聽聽
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it's actually quite nasty, but it's a聽
very good thing to know and to start to question.聽聽
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-Well and it all comes to this whole question聽
of provenance and you know do you know where聽聽
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something has come from and you聽
know its origins and its dates.聽聽
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The other thing, just briefly, is how did you, where was the inspiration to start this?
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-All right, so our company is based聽
in Denmark, but actually I'm coming as an聽聽
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outsider, I'm originally from the US and聽
I had this expectation or assumption, I guess,聽聽
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when I arrived in Denmark, that it was a country聽
that had big roots in like traditional roots in聽聽
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fishing and that I was going to find lots聽
and lots of seafood which is one of my loves.聽聽
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And that was just not what I found. As a student聽
who didn't have so much money, in the grocery聽聽
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stores it was quite limited. It obviously wasn't聽
very fresh and then Nima and I started to
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poke into the issue and we started to go down聽
to the harbours and we started to talk to the聽聽
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fishermen and we basically just realized how聽
inefficient the whole system was in terms of聽
[958]
how long it takes, how many middlemen the fish have聽
to pass through before it reaches the end-consumer,聽聽
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and in turn how little the fishermen are being聽
paid. A lot of them were taking part-time jobs in聽聽
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in the grocery stores because they just weren't聽
earning enough. And I think basically聽聽
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poking around we were shocked and we just realized聽
that this is an industry nobody really talks about聽聽
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that much and people don't really know all聽
the details because there are so few players.聽聽
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And yeah, I guess that's kind of where聽
it stemmed. -So hold that thought聽聽
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about being, you know, a student and you know聽
looking at the price of fish, hold that thought for聽聽
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the next presentation because we're going to come聽
into this afterwards and it's about the stories聽聽
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behind the entrepreneurs. So Christine, Nima, thank聽
you both so much. Great as ever!
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