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What's Going On With The Iran Nuclear Talks? | The Mehdi Hasan Show - YouTube
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what does Russian Reliance on the Wagner
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group in its current War mean for
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ukrainians what can 1 000 far-right
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mercenaries do that tens of thousands of
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regular Russian soldiers could not it's
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unlikely they can win this war for
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Russia but given their history it seems
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certain that they can kill a lot of
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innocent people trying
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me now are Ali sufane former FBI
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counterterrorism agent and former
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Ambassador Nathan sales who served in
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the Trump Administration as acting under
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Secretary of State for civilian security
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democracy and human rights together they
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wrote a recent NBC News opinion essay on
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Putin's uh close Affinity with neo-nazis
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including among his mercenaries thank
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you both for joining me Ali let me start
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with you Putin says he needs to
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denounceify Ukraine and to do it he's
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called in actual Neo-Nazi contractors
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just how widespread is far right
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sentiment among these mercenaries
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generally and in Wagner in particular
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Ali you might be muted can we we can't
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hear you
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apologies this is one of the
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disinformation campaigns that Russia is
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doing and it's interesting that this
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information campaign of the Kremlin is
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basically connected to the same
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individuals uh gentleman that you
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mentioned who also in charge of the
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Wagner group and behind the Wagner group
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Russia has been
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promoting uh have been recruiting
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neo-nazis and extreme far-right groups
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from all over Europe frankly and and the
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the United States the currently
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investment Ambassador sale our sales was
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involved in
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um uh classifying the Russian imperial
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movement as a terrorist organization in
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the United States because of the
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involvement that Russia was trying to do
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in U.S among far-right organizations not
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only that put a look at it in a more
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strategic perspective he used this
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information in groups like a Wagner
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group to expand foreign influence I've
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got to expand the gremlin's influence in
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Western countries but also you have a
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structural base to reach out to many
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far-righty groups and have them come to
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Russia and be part of the Russians
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influence operations for example in
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Saint Petersburg they do an event hosted
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by the international conservative uh
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movement the international national
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conservative movement which is basically
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very similar to how the jihadis and
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Al-Qaeda used to have maktabul kadamat
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they ask all these groups to come over
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and then the Russian imperial movement
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and Wagner groups start targeting uh
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very violent neo-nazis to be part of
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their movement so uh Mr Putin is not
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trying to denasify Ukraine Mr Putin is
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using uh Nazis in order to expand his
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influence not only on Ukraine but also
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to divide Western societies
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I'm about to say I was given all of that
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last week Ukrainian President Vladimir
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zielinski asked Joe Biden to designate
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Russia as a state sponsor of terrorism
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what would such a move mean and do you
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think it's warranted
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well the state-sponsored terrorism
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sanctioned is about as strict as it gets
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um that's the gold standard when it
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comes to U.S sanctions on foreign
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countries
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um it cripples the economies of these
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countries uh it makes trade very
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difficult it makes exports uh next to
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Impossible
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um and it's something that I think the
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Biden Administration should look at very
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very closely look Putin has done far
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more than what other countries have done
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to get themselves on the state sponsor
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of terrorism list remember North Korea
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got put back on the list in part because
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uh Kim Jong-un was using prohibited
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chemical weapons to assassinate a family
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member who was seen as a threat to his
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rule does that sound familiar I mean
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this is a page right out of Vladimir
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Putin's Playbook having poisoned
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opposition figures uh with polonium and
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novichok across the European continent
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and that's really just the tip of the
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iceberg Vladimir Putin's Russia has been
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bankrolling terrorist groups groups like
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The Russian imperial movement which was
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was designated in the last
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Administration he's been targeting
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civilians for execution including in the
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most brutal and horrific ways imaginable
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it sure seems like Putin's regime meets
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the standards and I think it's something
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the administration should look at very
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closely
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so Ali Vladimir Putin's far-right
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connections and sympathies are well
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established but to what extent is he
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right or are critics right about
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Ukrainian elements also having Neo-Nazi
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ties in particular what would she make
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what should we make of the azov
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Battalion which is part of Ukraine's
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civil defense structure and which a lot
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of supporters of the Russian government
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point out well you know they're right
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there is a Neo-Nazi group within the
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Ukrainian what's your response when
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people say that
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sure you know we were probably I was
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probably one of the first people who
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started talking about as often as of
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Italian and it's a connection to some
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Neo-Nazi groups uh early on however
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after the election of President
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zielinski there was significant pressure
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from the Ukrainian Administration and
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frankly from the U.S Administration to
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disconnect
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the relationship between azov and the
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National Guards in Ukraine and actually
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that led to kind of cutting the wings of
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many of the neo-nazis who are associated
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with as of
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um you know Ukraine is a western society
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neo-nazis and white supremacy is a
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disease in many Western societies and
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yes they have it but also Ukraine is a
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country that has a Jewish president
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whose family survived the Holocaust and
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since he has been elected he worked very
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hard to uh you know to clip at the power
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of these organizations
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um as of it's not the same uh you know
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it does not have the same power that it
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used to to have before and if you look
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at the Neo-Nazi organizations and groups
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and if you look at the ecosystem of
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frankly the far right to include here in
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the United States they are all
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sympathetic not to zelinski they are
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sympathetic to Putin either they defend
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Putin uh straight they defend Putin or
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at least they see the conflict in
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Ukraine uh through his lenses
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I must say of course just returning to
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Wagner lots of Nations have private
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military companies so I have to ask you
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served under a president Donald Trump
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who gave clemency to several convicted
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or accused American war criminals and
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not just military men he pardoned for
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Black Water guards who had been
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convicted of killing 14 Iraqis and
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wounding 17 others when they fired into
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cars in traffic in Baghdad in 2007
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unprovoked it was a ghastly case and
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Trump exonerated those American
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mercenaries doesn't that sort of
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hypocrisy and whitewashing of war crimes
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make it harder for the U.S to hold
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Russian mercenaries accountable for
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their abuses abroad
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well like American soldiers American
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mercenaries
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um commit abuses like everybody uh but
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not like the Russians do um mistakes get
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made abuses happen the American system
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is designed to hold perpetrators
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responsible the Russian system is
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designed to reward perpetrators of war
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crimes just this week Vladimir Putin uh
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as you said in your opening Maddie
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honored the perpetrators of the most
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horrific war crimes we've seen on
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European soil didn't Donald Trump do the
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same with those Navy Seals he pardoned
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wasn't he honoring them he invited them
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to events
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look what about ism is a game that
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doesn't do us much good in these
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circumstances the point is Vladimir
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Putin represents a clear and present
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danger to the international order to
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Ukraine sovereignty and territorial
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Integrity he is waging a war of
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extermination he's the person we should
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be focusing on now how to stop him how
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to sanction his economy how to
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his industry and how to get Ukraine the
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Mig and other weapons it needs to defend
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itself
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I completely agree with you that we
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should focus on Putin that's why we led
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the show talking about Wagner group and
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Putin I'm just wondering it isn't it
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easier to hold Putin than others to
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account if we hold our own war criminals
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to account and that didn't happen under
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the last Administration Ali one last
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question to you on on Wagner group is
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what are they going to do going forward
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right now how worried should ukrainians
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be about their role or are we
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overstating their military presence
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their effectiveness
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I don't think we should overstate
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anything about the Wagner Groove I think
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there's a potential that they become
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bigger and bigger on the Russians
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um using use them to create this gray
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Zone kind of uh you know Battlefield uh
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we already see their uh involvement not
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only with massacres in Ukraine and with
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what's happening in your brain but also
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we see them operating in many African
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countries as you mentioned we see them
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operating in Syria we see them also
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diversifying their stream of income
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sometimes in Africa they get paid in
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pigment and gold sometimes they get paid
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in in in in in in oil and gas in Syria
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and other places they are very dangerous
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and now I think uh with the war going on
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there's a big possibility that we're
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going to start seeing a shift to into an
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Insurgency and a group like the Wagner
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very utilized by the Russians to commit
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many massacres against acquaintance
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very worrying times we'll have to leave
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it there Ali soufan and former
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Ambassador Nathan sales thank you both
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for your time appreciate it
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